Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
very nice....let’s see how the anti marian crowd twists those words of the very leaders they themselves credit with ‘restoring’ the ‘true’ faith....
#1 It really doesn’t matter what those men believed. Some of it is *pure* speculation. She had other children with Joseph, so she could not be a perpetual “virgin” for one.
#2 However, I believe some of it as well and I believe Mary should be thought of in a very high regard.
#3 That does not mean that you can a) pray to Mary or b) have Mary intercede on your behalf as both of those are unbiblical.
It seems the main problem I have always had with the “perpetual virginity” argument is the least defensible, even by Calvin, as noted in your post: he “interprets” the translation to mean cousins, etc. (isn’t it clear that James was “the brother of Jesus”?). I just can’t go there: I firmly believe that Mary was a virgin when the Holy Spirit came upon her, and that she remained a virgin right through the birth of Christ, but after that, I can find absolutely no scriptural support for her remaining so. And in my mind (and my faith), it just doesn’t matter that she had normal marital relations with the faithful Joseph after Christ’s birth. That does nothing to detract from the honor done her by God or the faithful way in which she accepted His will.
I greatly appreciate your thoughtful analysis and your genuine seeker’s faith. Thanks for the post.
Colonel, USAFR
Eh. Catholics seem to quote Luther and Calvin to Protestants as if we simply replaced the Catholic Pope with Luther and Calvin. Luther and Calvin may have agreed with the Catholic Church about Mary’s perpetual virginity. I still don’t.
SnakeDoc
The Early Church Fathers are almost unanimous in the assertion that the birth was painless and had no loss of Mary's virginal integrity during the birth. In other words, her Hymen didn't break. St. Augustine said "Jesus passed through the womb of Mary as a ray of sun passes through glass"....This was confirmed by Pope Paul IV and many others before and after. If Jesus emerged from a sealed tomb, and passed through closed doors, surely he could pass through Mary's womb without breaking her hymen and causing her pain.
-- from the thread Did Mary retain her virginal integrity while giving birth to Jesus?
I have no idea why you weren’t taught these things as a Protestant but, Good Luck.
As a fallen-away Methodist, I would agree with your take on Mary. I would feel very uncomfortable praying to Mary or asking for intercession.
How true.
Just because someone says it (popes included) doesn’t make it so.
What does Scripture say?
In Luke 1:46-47, Mary refers to “God my Saviour.” Odd she would say that were she truly born sinless herself.
Hoss
No time like Advent to get back on Wesley’s horse! There’s been a great resurgence of actual scriptural Christianity in the UMC in the last decade, as the ‘60s and ‘70s social activists get older, fatter and turn into bishops where they can’t do direct harm to the believers in the pews. Check out Methodist Renewal Movement.
And have a great and blessed Christmas!
It is a mystery why you and I, and others, are now come into a cocoon, where the treasures are hidden from the masses, the world, while in plain sight. How far removed from the early Church we have come, particularly in the USA—from that early Church Christ established in Peter, standing over the old gates of Hell. It is truly a miracle to take that first scary step approaching the Church, through the gauze of slander, lies, mis-information and near clinically proportioned ignorance and bias of and against Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church. It is as if the power of the Holy Spirit moved mightily from the power of the heart for Jesus, to the head, and the power of Reason which emboldens the soul by way of Wisdom. Can I ever live up to all I have learned, and be once saved always saved? Of course not. But the striving is the Way of the Cross, and the state of Grace is availed to the People of God, and I try to rest in his Mercy, for now knowing, I carry a heavier weight and responsibility for obedience, discipline, piety and conscience, by His Grace.
Good for you.
As to Mary's perpetual virginity, I don't really care what those quoted have said. I know what scripture says in, for example, Matthew 1:25
Hi Colonel and Eric,
Eric..I agree with the Colonel. I am a UMC ministry candidate and certified Lay Speaker. I have never had a congregation turn on me, or resent my presence when I have give a theologically (or socially for that matter) conservative sermon. There are many of us within the UMC working on turning it back to sound biblical princples. Come join us!
Hi Rita,
I hope you have a Blessed Christmas. I think the actual issue here is, many of us Protestants simply see things in the catechism of the Roman Catholic Chrurch that arent in Scripture. I am an ex-catholic. I became a Protestant while serving in the Army, when I met and became friendly with a Protestant Chaplain. The whole issue of purgatory, confession of sins to a Priest, and the Priest determining what one’s penance is, in order to be forgiven, when the Scripture tells all we need to do is repent of our sins. I could go on and on, and I love my Catholic brothers and sisters, but their insistence that the RCC is the “One true faith” gets a little old at times.
You got it. bttt
Yes, Mary needed a Savior, too.
Rom. 3:10 "There is none good but one, that is, God."
“#1 It really doesn’t matter what those men believed. Some of it is *pure* speculation. She had other children with Joseph, so she could not be a perpetual “virgin” for one.”
Who were these children?
“#3 That does not mean that you can a) pray to Mary or b) have Mary intercede on your behalf as both of those are unbiblical.”
Can I intercede on behalf of you?
Of course she did. Why do you think Christ chose her, before she was born?
Christ kept her from sin right from the beginning.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.