Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
“They have the clear and unambiguous words of God in Scripture and yet they STILL believe a lie.”
You said so yourself. ‘Among those born of woman’. That is precisely what Christ says, and I have no intention of denying His statement.
“How long do you think it will be before Rome decides that Mary was not actually ‘born of a woman’ herself, but instead supernaturally conceived by a virgin...?”
What the immaculate conception teaches is that Mary was kept free from sin by the Power of Christ at her conception. Not her birth. Given the idiom, ‘born of woman’ to apply to a purely natural birth, I’d argue it doesn’t apply to Mary due to Christ’s intervention.
“I suppose we should brace ourselves for Mary’s mother to be declared a virgin her entire life...and her mother...and her mother...and...”
I am only surprised that it took so long to make the argument of turtles all the way down.
The problem is that you reject the first part of the teaching, that it is Christ who intervened at her conception. So there is no need for further intervention.
“Eamon Duffy.”
I suppose we can keep at this all day.
You trust Duffy greater than the then Bishop of Jerusalem at the Council of Chalcedon?
“In addition to Epiphanius, there is Jerome who also lived in Palestine and does not report any tradition of an assumption.”
Epiphanius is a reliable source that the information regarding Mary’s tomb was at 370 AD, unknown in Jerusalem. Considering that Chalcedon was 70 years later, this is entirely understandable.
“Isidore of Seville, in the seventh century, echoes Epiphanius by saying that no one has any information at all about Mary’s death.”
Writing in the West, after the Fall of the Empire?
There are many Eastern sources who confirm the Assumption.
“GOD will NOT be mocked! You want a Scripture? Meditate on that one!”
Indeed. Your argument that Mary sinned, exists from silence and is not upheld by tradition. Tradition which is this case very much defends the tradition that Mary was sinless.
Saying that she could not have been bodily assumed, and that such a statement contradicts scripture is false.
Scripture says no such thing. Scripture doesn’t even comment on Mary’s life after Christ’s death beyond a solitary snippet in Acts.
There is so much information out there on the Early Church which is not contained in Scripture. Are we to regard all of it as false? Hardly. This is why Tradition is necessary.
I realise this is a radical statement, but the Gospels are the transmission of an oral tradition, years after Christ’s death and resurrection. The preservation of that oral tradition, both in the original books and in their later compilations, are why we are here today, arguing over the nature of those teachings.
None of this happens in a vacuum. Scripture AND Tradition complement each other. We cannot have one without the other.
“Why do you guys refuse to acknowledge that there are two lines of bible manuscripts...The relatively few that your religion makes claims to and the Majority Texts which are completely separate from Rome and Jerome???”
Depends on what you are talking about? OT or NT?
OT, there is the Masoretic text vs the LXX. I’m aware of the difference between the Masoretic text and the LXX, which isn’t really the issue here.
I’m aware of three ancient Greek manuscripts that are dated to the 4th century prior to the publication of Jerome’s Vulgate.
The Codex Vaticanus, the Codex Alexandrine and the Codex Sinaiticus. That is all.
There are certainly. more that existed, but those are all we have at present.
I remember Jews saying the same thing...
Maybe the Catholics stole the body!
ROTFLMAO!
I did NOT call into question your intelligence. Rather I called into question your word choices and suggested that continued education would be of benefit to you. Clearly if I thought you stupid or a moron, education would be of no benefit.
No I was saved as a Baptist believer at 7, and we lived out in the sticks. It was too far for us to walk to the regular school, but the Catholic school bus picked up the neighbor kids so my old man talked them into picking us up--- of course then we went to the Catholic school, for 2 years until, thankfully, we moved.
It was one of the most traumatic experiences my brother and I ever had. He was bullied constantly and I had to fight for him. And I was younger by 2 years
The nuns were hideous bearded menopausal creatures that carried straps around the school, just looking for trouble.
If I was the only kid who knew the answer and raised my hand, I was ignored. I was forced to attend all kinds of strange rituals, to this day I have no idea what was going on, as there seemed to be a feast day 2-3 times a week and they dragged us off to this Gothic nightmare of a church with idols all over the place. There was a lot of kneeling, chanting, mumbling, God only knows what. The other kids told me just to do what they did. Up and down, chant, mumble, craziness. Get holy water at the door, genuflect, scrape and bow, every other minute.
The priest was creepy, the altar boys were my friends and they swore like sailors and said they drank the old guy's wine. I think the priest was always drunk. Later, in fact within the last ten years, he has been sentenced to prison for you all know what----- he was just moved from parish to parish, molesting little children. No wonder the boys drank.
thankfully my mother kept us sane, we went to a Baptist church every Sunday, Christmas etc. I look at my time there as an education that God meant me to have alright, but not like a Catholic wants to think.
My mother said well we dont have idols, so do whatever you want with them. The Marys were all shot with beebee guns in the pasture, then we buried them or something. I dont know, and dont care.
“and are justified by his grace as a gift...”
Isn’t that what we are saying is the gift that Christ gave to Mary? Even before she was born?
Because our existence does not end with death.
Good question though, and it is important to recall this is true even in the case of souls going to Hell. Hence when Christ descended into Hell.
Which is why I asked him if I have understood him correctly. I am not quite sure.
You don't have to. Your Roman Catholic catechism does for you.
Do you believe your catechism?
969 - "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."
Do you believe your popes?
The words of the Holy Father certainly come as an encouragement to those participating in this Thursday's Roman dialogue on the issue of the Fifth Marian Dogma. The Day of Dialogue, consisting of bishops and theologians discussing the present appropriateness of the solemn definition of Our Lady's role as Spiritual Mother of all humanity, Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces and Advocate...
"During his Angelus message last Sunday (March 21, 2010), Pope Benedict referred to Mary as the "Mediatrix of grace for every penitent sinner..."
And yes, we know Rome finagles its teaching by trying to say Mary gets her mediatrix role from Christ, but guess what? There is nowhere in Scripture that says Christ gives up His role as our sole, unique and complete mediator between God and men.
Once again, in terrible and explicit effrontery, Rome stands against the word of God...
" For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -- 1 Timothy 2:5
As blue-duncan reminded us awhile back, in order to understand Christ's work on our behalf, we must know the correct definition and responsibility of a "mediator."
Mary does not "mediate" between God and men. Salvation is by God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone for God's glory alone. And we know this by the infallible word of God which Rome contradicts, ignores and denies, time after time after time.
Well first chapter of Enoch is my own personal study right now. That it was among the dead sea scrolls I find intriguing.
“So, until the original (Hebrew) texts emerge, It is my opinion that the “new” must be proved in the “old” - quite the reverse of what is commonly insisted upon.”
Too true. Too true. Kindred soul here. Yes, it is most unfortunate that we do not possess hebrew originals. Even the earliest Greek stuff only goes back to mid 4th century. There’s a lot of miles left to go.
It is also a pity that the LXX is in the Greek. Something lamented even in Jerome’s time.
I’d be more comfortable with the Masoretic text if they had an earlier date. I’m not sure quite what Jerome used, but there is a fair gap from the earliest Masoretic texts we have and Jerome. I’m willing to put up with the translation, as the translation had access to sources we don’t have, with corrections for those sources which are older, such as the dead sea scrolls.
There is so much there in the OT, much that was old even in the time of Moses. Probably Abraham as well.
Thank you for your time sir, and I hope you have a wonderful day.
“Because our existence does not end with death.”
Then death is not the end of life but simply a change of condition or state? And resurrection is not the restoration to life but a reversal of that change?
“Hence when Christ descended into Hell.”
That would be “God as Christ the Son” according to your earlier comment? God was in Hell?
But I've got to tell you, I think non-RC parents who send their kids to parochial schools are taking a terrible chance with them. William, God clearly protected your children and led them in the right direction. I honestly wouldn't have had the nerve to take that chance. Not after hearing my husband's stories about parochial school and certainly not after listening to 1000silverling's scathing remarks.
"Flee from idolatry."
Where in Scripture are we told such nonsense? It's total fiction that denies the singular work of Christ.
Repent from that foul belief.
The problem is that you reject the first part of the teaching, that it is Christ who intervened at her conception.
Just "lucky," I guess.
Nice try. But you did, whether you want to admit it or not. You have no idea to what level I am educated. The spirit in which your remark was made was not light-hearted and kind.
Sorry, but “ROTFLMAO” doesn’t quite cut it.
Hoss (as in my screen name)
apparently when it’s Ex Cathedra... no?
You tell us.
Hoss
Actually, D, your wife, Southern living, soldiers, and Bob Feller weren’t at the heart of the question; veneration of saints as defined by the Roman Catholic Church are.
How do you communicate with them? How do you wing your requests to them?
How do you make them hear you?
Hoss
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