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To: Lee N. Field
"Oh, horrors! Those evil nasty Clavinists!"

While the differences in theology and dogma can be endlessly debated, historical fact cannot. Where ever Calvinists have had a monopoly on power they have established a society void of color, joy and hope.

8 posted on 12/22/2010 9:29:06 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

Really? So those who believe what Jesus said, that all those who believe in Him will have everlasting life, tend to create joyless dictatorships? Methinks you extrapolate too much from too little, and have presented a sweeping generalization that cannot be factually supported. You have believed a highly selective, skewed history, a history as told by Calvinism’s enemies, but not in its own native tongue. Meet them on their own terms, in their own words, and you find them a humble, God-fearing people who sincerely wished to obey God in all things. In other words, you find them Christian.


9 posted on 12/22/2010 9:53:58 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Natural Law

“Where ever Calvinists have had a monopoly on power they have established a society void of color, joy and hope. “

Nope. There is feasting, there is revelry, there is joy.

There just isn’t Roman Catholicism!


20 posted on 12/22/2010 10:47:55 PM PST by Persevero (Merry Christmas!)
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To: Natural Law

Three famous Puritans include:
John Bunyan, preacher and author of “Pilgrims Progress”
William Bradford, founder of Plymouth
Jonathan Edwards, early American revivalist - according to answer.com. I could list many more, but to use them as a sampling:

“In 1666, John was briefly released for a few weeks before being re-arrested for preaching and sent back to Bedford gaol, where he remained for a further six years. During that time, he wove shoelaces to support his family and preached to his fellow prisoners - a congregation of about sixty. In his possession were two books, John Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, the Bible, a violin he had made out of tin, a flute he’d made from a chair leg and a supply of pen and paper. Both music and writing were integral to John’s Puritan faith.”

I guess he could have had more color, joy and hope if he had not been weaving shoelaces while sitting in jail for preaching without a license. However, note the emphasis on the love of and playing of music. Not to mention he wrote “Pilgrim’s Progress,” a literary work still held to be in the top ten English literary works of all time. A dullard? Really?

Jonathan Edwards “was fascinated by the discoveries of Isaac Newton and other scientists of his age. Before he undertook full-time ministry work in Northampton, he wrote on various topics in natural philosophy, including “flying spiders,” light, and optics. While he was worried about the materialism and faith in reason alone of some of his contemporaries, he saw the laws of nature as derived from God and demonstrating his wisdom and care. Hence, scientific discoveries did not threaten his faith, and for him, there was no inherent conflict between the spiritual and material.

Edwards also wrote sermons and theological treatises that emphasized the beauty of God and the role of aesthetics in the spiritual life, in which he anticipates a twentieth-century current of theological aesthetics, represented by figures like Hans Urs von Balthasar.” Theological aesthetics, scientific inquiry and appreciation? But he had no color, joy or hope!

William Bradford, author of “Of Plymouth Plantation,” was also a poet. “In addition to his more well-known work, Bradford also dabbled in poetry. According to Mark L. Sargent, “his poems are often lamentations, sharp indictments of the infidelity and self-interest of the new generation. On occasion, the poems recycle dark images from the history.” Perhaps he would have danced more jigs or done some stand up had he not lost most of his family in his youth, lost his wife overboard after the trip to America, survived the starving times and experienced a painful near death by getting hung upside down in a deer trap.

Your description of the Puritans is ignorant and ugly. Just because they did not embrace Roman Catholic ideas of worship and some of that culture, does not mean they were unhappy little snivelings. They were men and women of great courage, passion, talent, appreciation, and character. The hardships they endured were at times indescribable. Their contributions to the church and the country have been extraordinary.


22 posted on 12/22/2010 11:07:39 PM PST by Persevero (Merry Christmas!)
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To: Natural Law
"Where ever Calvinists have had a monopoly on power they have established a society void of color, joy and hope."

Bwahahahah. As opposed to all the color, joy and hope wrought by Torquemada and Mary Queen of Scotts.

33 posted on 12/23/2010 2:56:49 AM PST by circlecity
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To: Natural Law

“Where ever Calvinists have had a monopoly on power they have established a society void of color, joy and hope” — I didn’t know the Sauds or North Koreans were Calvinists@ :-P


39 posted on 12/23/2010 4:49:01 AM PST by Cronos (One cries because one is sad. For example I cry because others are stupid and it makes me sad.)
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To: Natural Law

“Where ever Calvinists have had a monopoly on power they have established a society void of color, joy and hope.”
A gross generalization. Specifically, where?


49 posted on 12/23/2010 7:12:34 AM PST by AZhardliner
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To: Natural Law

17th Century Holland, dominated by Calvinists, was the home of Rembrandt, Vermeer, and the other greatest Masters of painting, and led the world in tolerance, prosperity and trade—with its tulips, and wonderful attitude, it can hardly be characterized as “a society void of color, joy, and hope.”

Even 17th Century New England, in spite of the Puritans’ weird views on holidays, was not the horrible joyless place you portray—and it was very much a key place in forging the future American character—that led to the War of Independence—and the tolerance and freedom we now enjoy.

Communist East Germany, or North Korea...were/are never ruled by Calvinists—and are what you are describing, not Holland, Switzerland, and New England of 350 years ago.

I know a lot of conservative Presbyterians today too...who really know how to party!


58 posted on 12/23/2010 6:05:03 PM PST by AnalogReigns
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