"It can be a somewhat startling theme for western Christian ears..."

Insight Scoop ^ | December 27, 2010 | Carl Olson

[warm n fuzzy]

Good, but known info bro.

I own and read several versions of scripture, including the RC versions.

I understand the so called limitations of the KJV but I find it’s language to be the most poetical of any version.

I’m not here to put down any part of the body of Christ.

I’ve NEVER been able to see past that plank in my eye to see the mote in other folk’s eyes when it comes to faith.

But I feel no loss of standing or status with Our Lord because I do not accept the specifics of other people’s theology.

I want all people to go to HIM always.

The Christian WARS of Reformation are over forever I hope, AND I am an AMERICAN who believes in religious freedom within a secular state.

Happy New Year to you and yours, and to ALL of you good people here.

The fireworks need setting up!

Later.

[Cronos]

I said that if JESUS didn’t say it, that I don’t care about it.;

You then dismiss all of the OT and all of the NT except the specific words of Jesus in the Gospel. You would then dismiss the Epistles of Paul, of Peter, of James, of John, would dismiss Revelations, Acts, even the Gospel Narrative as that was not what Jesus "said".

That is incorrect logic.

[warm n fuzzy]

It means that if GOD did NOT say it, that I don’t care about it.

Since GOD has said almost ALL of scripture how is that a “logical” error?

Ever heard of “hyperbole”?

Geeze.

[caww]

Christianity is itself a religion and to be religious means to live morally and to do good works.

The problem you have there Cronos is most other religions also preach morality and good works. So one does not have to be a Christian in order to accomplish this.

The difference in Christianity is allowing Christ to live His life thru us...thus the good works are never ours to claim..but the Glory goes to Him alone.

Scripture teaches that, in essence, to be in a personal relationship with Jesus means to be religious.

Not so Cronos...we don't have personal relationships by following a code of behavior...we spend time with the individual...communicating... and they with us...that is a relationship and how we learn to know one another. The "works" are done to please the individual not because there's a can do or not list. We walk with Him ..."by faith"..and our works follow for that faith as naturally as when lovers care and do for one another. We are not called the "Bride" for nothing.

[Cronos]

Scripture is infallible -- we both agree to that. Council/Papal infallibility is limited purely to doctrinal matters spoken ex-cathedra. It does not and cannot contradict the primary point, viz. it cannot contradict scripture.

Hence your statement is incorrect, there is no conflict between scriptural infallibility, which comes first, and council/papal decisions on matters such as the nature of Christ -- was He God or did He become God? Was it a Trinity or just two with the Holy Spirit being the common "spirit" not a third? All of these were clarified in council, hence the infallibility of them

We believe in One God, the Father the Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen

We believe in One Lord, Jesus Christ, only Son of God, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten, not made, of One being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord the Giver of Life.

The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite.

So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.

[Cronos]

read my post 56. combine this with what you say that "if JESUS didn’t say it, that I don’t care about it. " -- hence you don't care about the OT. The NT as in the KJV is derived from the Textus Receptus -- a translation by the Catholic scholar Erasmus, supplemented with text from the Douay-Rheims (the official Catholic translation into English of the Bible). The Textus Receptus also takes part of it's works (Apocalypse) from the Latin Vulgate.

Ergo -- the KJV translation, especially the part you "care about" i.e. the Gospels, is derived from Catholic sources.

[Cronos]

You said I said that if JESUS didn’t say it, that I don’t care about it.;

and that is why you dismissed all the Epistles by Paul, Peter, James, John. That is why you dismiss the OT Prophets from Isaish to Jeremiah to Micah. That is why you dismiss the book of Kings, dismiss Deuteronomy, Apocalypse. Why?

[Cronos]

You said your bible was the KJV not the Catholic. I pointed out that the KJV NT especially is derived from the Textus Receptus (translation by Catholic scholar Erasmus which also derives in part from the Latin Vulgate) and the Douay-Rheims

The KJV is hence derived from Catholic sources.

[warm n fuzzy]

You are certainly welcome to your own opinions.

My statement is not “incorrect”.

Unless I claim to be a RC, which I most certainly do not.

Why do you insist in talking down to me as if I was your pupil?

You try to “explain” to me what the triune GOD is?

YOU are NOT the source of all correct Christian theology, and neither is the RC or any other organized/established church.

[warm n fuzzy]

Look up HYPERBOLE.

Maybe you ought to reread the post where I tell you the truth about how ALL of the OT is based/derived from the Jews? Maybe you ought to consider what it means that Jesus and ALL of his apostles were JEWS?

You RCs are incapable of accepting the equality of other Christian belief systems.

I have nothing against RCs except for your boring arrogance.

You believe YOUR theology, good on you!

So YOU live it. You go ahead and get sprinkled all you want, worship men and women all you want, etc etc.

I was born and RAISED IRISH RC, I went to parochial schools, I was supposed to go to seminary.

I know the RC dogma I have a current issue of the catechism.

BUT you try to explain to me what the triune GOD is?.

I KNOW YOU, but you sure don’t know ME.

No hard feelings, but you are way off base when you try to judge me and my beliefs by RC dogma.

This isn’t a football game, one side or another does not “win” while another “loses”.

The goal is salvation, the goal is to do what Our Lord wants us to do.

HOW we do that is where we disagree.

Oh well.

[warm n fuzzy]

I did no such thing.

Look up HYPERBOLE.

[Joe 6-pack]

"The pot cannot become the potter."

You may want to look at Genesis 1:26-27. Most potters don't create pots "in their own image." Even if they did, it would be because they wanted the pots to be more like them.

[warm n fuzzy]

SO WHAT?

“Rah rah” RCs?

As I stated before, typical RC “BORING ARROGANCE” .

Screw ALL established religions.

GOD is what is important, NOT “religions”.

You NEED some human between you and GOD, somebody to tell you how to act.

We Protestants believe in GOD not man.

We need no human between us and Our Lord.

We don’t NEED priests.

But in the interests of ecumenical CHRISTIAN brotherhood, “rah RAH RCs!”.

[warm n fuzzy]

Respectfully, this discussion started out as my objection to the absurd idea that by seeking Our Lord man becomes “DIVINE”.

I also stated the obvious fact that if the Lord wanted to make men “divine” that HE certainly could do that, (is HE not the one true all powerful infinite GOD?).

BUT that is not what is explained in scripture.

The fact remains, unless the one true GOD desires it, the pot CANNOT ever become the potter.

[Joe 6-pack]

Certainly no man will ever be perfect, or "Divine." Yet, I think you'd agree that the more rigidly a person adheres to Scriptural directions and the words of Christ, the "better" a person becomes, and in that sense, they become less imperfect (or closer to perfect if you prefer). I think the concept of the article and this discussion is merely that it's hard to follow Christ without walking in his footsteps.

For me personally, I would never presume to know exactly what God has in mind for me, or what my ultimate purpose on this earth is, but I can also elminate a bunch of behaviors, activities and pursuits that I'm pretty confident are not part of His will, and by doing so, I would contend my behavior and attitudes become "more Godly" and more closely aligned with His perfect purpose for me. We needn't be divine to serve the Divine.

[Joe 6-pack]

I also do like your potter/pot analogy, but you have to think of it in terms of both form and purpose. If I start with a lump of clay to make a pot, it's going to be nothing like me...apart from having an abstract form of a mouth a neck and a body. If my intended purpose as the potter is to make a container, the form that pot takes is going to be vastly different from me, although my body is, again in an abstract sense a container for my soul...function begets form.

If on the other hand, I decide to take that lump of clay and form it in my image, the primary purpose is no longer to contain things, but to reflect who I am, and the more realistic and detailed and precise an image I make of who I am, the better that lump of clay serves its function. So I would ask, if God created us "in his image," what would His purpose have been? I suggest that it would be that others would see Him in each of us...

[warm n fuzzy]

I agree with you in the main.

My problem is with the concept of “earned” “divinity”.

“Good” or “better” is not “divine”.

[Joe 6-pack]

"“Good” or “better” is not “divine”.

I don't think anybody is claiming that it is. I think the argument is merely that the "Divine" is the benchmark by which "good" and "better" are defined. One becomes "good" or "better" by striving to be more "God like".

[warm n fuzzy]

Actually, if you read the entire thing, a couple of folks did try to claim that.

Otherwise I would have kicked out of this thread already.

[Cronos]

Your statement comparing the two infallibilities is incorrect, like comparing apples to apple juice.

there is no conflict between scriptural infallibility, which comes first, and council/papal decisions on matters such as the nature of Christ -- was He God or did He become God? Was it a Trinity or just two with the Holy Spirit being the common "spirit" not a third? All of these were clarified in council, hence the infallibility of them

The Triune God is God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God.

Here's a clear definition for you

there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.

The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty

the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God.

The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."