Quit pestering us, church leaders tell membership in letter

Mormon Coffee (Mormonism Research Ministry) ^ | Nov. 22, 2010 | Eric Johnson

[restornu]

That is not fact it is a misrepresentation!

One needs to compare oranges with oranges not apples!

Rabbi Nissim Wernick’s Dissertation on the Book of Abraham

http://www.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/summariz.htm

[restornu]

Speaking of HYPOCRITES...

***

Elsie you don’t even know these men nor do you really know Robert Millett but that does not matter does it Elsie?

For it seems that the Ten commandments have little meaning as well as the Sermon on the mount just wantonly post any darn thing one feels like...

Ex. 20: 16
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Deut. 5: 20
20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Matt. 19: 18
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mark 10: 19
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Luke 18: 20
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Rom. 13: 9
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mosiah 13: 23
23 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Hel. 7: 21
21 But behold, it is to get gain, to be praised of men, yea, and that ye might get gold and silver. And ye have set your hearts upon the riches and the vain things of this world, for the which ye do murder, and plunder, and steal, and bear false witness against your neighbor, and do all manner of iniquity.

Bear false witness;distort, slander and trash who is going to stop one for it seems pretty clear when one engages in this type of activities their consceince is seared or that something the sweet soft voice the Holy Ghost so that one would durst not utter!

...it is obvious that these gifts are alien to the soul!

Matt 5

Sermon on the mount (Not apart of the antis desires)

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

[restornu]

Wrong when you understand the process of DNA not some wantabe tinkering fool then one will hundreds of years. I have no doubt that there will be even another layer of genitics that Lord has yet to reveal!

When I come across the exact wording again I will post it!

[restornu]

Does not apply here...

You seems to be clueless to the topic

Wrong pew sister!

[restornu]

LOL what do you think!

[ejonesie22]

Oh, please do...

I love Science Fiction...

[restornu]

Oh, please do...

I love Science Fiction...

***

I know you do that is why you adhere to Nicene Creed!:)

[ejonesie22]

Hum, isn't that from this:

A Critical Analysis of the Book of Abraham in the Light of Extra-Canonical Jewish Writings Rabbi Nissim Wernick's 1968 thesis completed at BYU.

“Summarized by Kerry A. Shirts”

Oh, well that must make it true, Shirts track record is impeccable*

*If one redefines impeccable as meaning lousy...

[ejonesie22]

Sorry resty, that as real as it gets.

No magic hat or mythical cities there.

When you have something solid come find us...

[Cronos]

Thank you. But, seriously, the Book of Abraham is just an excerpt from the ancient egyptian book of the dead, dedicated to the god Anubus

The Book of Abraham papyri were thought lost in the 1871 Great Chicago Fire. However, in 1966 several fragments of the papyri were found in the archives of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, and in the LDS church archives. They are now referred to as the Joseph Smith Papyri. Upon examination by professional non-Mormon Egyptologists, the papyri were found to bear no resemblance to Joseph Smith's interpretation, and were common Egyptian funerary texts, dating to about the first century BC.

J Smith stated that "with W.W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc. — a more full account of which will appear in its place, as I proceed to examine or unfold them"

Several Egyptologists, including Theodule Deveria, Klaus Baer, Richard A. Parker, and Dr. Albert Lythgoe noted that portions of Facsimile 1 appeared to be incorrect, based on comparison with other similar Egyptian vignettes, and suspected that they had been reconstructed from lacunae (gaps) in the original papyri.[30] The papyri containing Facsimile 1 is acknowledged by Egyptologists to be a version of The Book of Breathings

Lythgoe well summarized the consensus among these egyptologists: "the god Anubus, bending over the mummy, was shown with a human and strangely un-Egyptian head, instead of a jackal's head usual to the scene."

The translation by both Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists bears no resemblance to the text of the Book of Abraham as purportedly translated by Joseph Smith. Several excerpts of these modern translations are shown below.

BYU scholar Michael Rhodes summarized the content of the papyri as follows:
"The Hor Book of Breathings is a part of eleven papyri fragments... from three separate papyri scrolls. Joseph Smith Papyri I, X, and XI are from the Book of Breathings belonging to Hor (Hr) the son of Usirwer. Joseph Smith Papyri II, IV, V, VI, VII, and IX all came from a Book of the Dead belonging to Tshemmim (Ts-sri.t Min.), the daughter of Eskhons (Ns-Hnsw). Finally, Joseph Smith Papyrus III is part of Chapter 125 of the Book of the Dead belonging to Neferirtnub (Nfr-ir(.t)-nbw).

Egytologist Klaus Baer translated the writing flanking the vignette which was the source of Facsimile No. 1 as follows:
... the prophet of Amonrasonter, prophet [?] of Min Bull-of-his-Mother, prophet [?] of Khons the Governor... Hor, justified, son of the holder of the same titles, master of secrets, and purifier of the gods Osorwer, justified [?]... Tikhebyt, justified. May your ba live among them, and may you be buried in the West...May you give him a good, splendid burial on the West of Thebes just like ...

The papyrus forming the Book of Abraham are:

• Transliterated text from the recovered papyri and facsimiles published in the Book of Abraham contain no direct references, either historical or textual, to Abraham. Rather, they parallel other texts from the Egyptian Book of the Dead and Book of Breathings.
• Abraham's name does not appear anywhere in the papyri or the facsimiles
• Joseph Smith’s explanation of the facsimiles and interpretation (as contained in the BoA text) does not parallel Egyptologists' transliterations or explanations of the text or images on the papyri
• The Joseph Smith Papyri have been dated to the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period, 1500 years after Abraham’s supposed lifetime. This contradicts of Joseph Smith's statement that the papyri were "written by [Abraham's] own hand upon papyrus."
• Anachronisms exist in the Book of Abraham which indicate that it was not written in Abraham’s time

[Cronos]

Actually, no, I got that off the Mormon links that PD sent, plus some digging around into the fact that Mormons believe that there were Semites (Nephites and Lamanites) in pre-Columbine America. Of course, you then add this in to the FACT that there is no historical / archaeological / genetic / linguistic proof for this

THe link you gave does not aid that:

It says that there is no Jewish gene, which is false -- it's a proven fact that there IS a Jewish/Israelie haplogroup which was used to identify long lost ISraelie in East Africa and india.

however, the Native Americans do not have this haplogroup, not one of them. None of the skeletons found have semitic origins either.

[Cronos]

Elsie -- stop spamming. We're having a discussion here and your extreme fonts are just distracting if not irritating. If you wish to bring a point, it can be done in plain text.

Also, while I know and believe that Mormon beliefs on Semites in pre-Columbine America, their "translation" of the book of the dead etc. are false, made-up, like the book of Mormon, I object to you using insults like "Yes/no must be REAL foreign concept to MORMONs." --> that gets us nowhere in the discussion.

we can be civil and explain our point -- Mormonism being a made-up religion has so many flaws that one needs only to point out one quietly.

[Cronos]

Unfortunately the excerpt of the DVD:

1. does not answer any questions -- it obfuscates

2. does not answer a simple question: why is there no trace of Israeli/Judaic genes in native Americans (if Native Americans are supposedly descendents of Nephites/Lamanites -- a fictional Israeli group) when genetic research shows a distinctive Jewish haplogroup found in Israeli communities from East AFrica to Yemen to India. Furthermore, the native Americans do not even have vaguely Semitic genes to relate them to any Semites.

3. does not answer a simple question: why is there no trace of any Semitic languages in any Native American languges. SEmitic languages have distinctive elements The roots of verbs and most nouns in the Semitic languages are characterized as a sequence of consonants or "radicals" (hence also the term consonantal root). Such abstract consonantal roots are used in the derivation of actual words by adding the vowels and non-root consonants (or "transfixes") which go with a particular morphological category around the root consonants, in an appropriate way, generally following specific patterns. It is a peculiarity of Semitic linguistics that a large majority of these consonantal roots are triliterals (although there are a number of quadriliterals, and in some languages also biliterals). which Native American languages do not

4. does not answer a simple question: why is there no trace of archaeological elements (pottery, weapons, writings, skeletons, city walls, etc.) of Lamanites or Nephites or any Semites in North AMerica. REmember that they are supposed to have come in 600 BC and in 600 BC in the Old World they were using the wheel, which was not yet developed in the Americas -- but no trace of this. There is none of the Old World technology found here, not even in weaponry or agriculture or town-building. In contrast we have a lot of archaeological artifacts of Tolmecs, Olmecs, Toltecs etc. from before 600 BC. We even have traces of nomadic native American tribes (arrow heads etc.) but none that would indicate an advanced BOM-type civilisation or even a 600 BC level Old World civilisation.

[Cronos]

Unfortunately the excerpt of the DVD:

1. does not answer any questions -- it obfuscates

2. does not answer a simple question: why is there no trace of Israeli/Judaic genes in native Americans (if Native Americans are supposedly descendents of Nephites/Lamanites -- a fictional Israeli group) when genetic research shows a distinctive Jewish haplogroup found in Israeli communities from East AFrica to Yemen to India. Furthermore, the native Americans do not even have vaguely Semitic genes to relate them to any Semites.

3. does not answer a simple question: why is there no trace of any Semitic languages in any Native American languges. SEmitic languages have distinctive elements The roots of verbs and most nouns in the Semitic languages are characterized as a sequence of consonants or "radicals" (hence also the term consonantal root). Such abstract consonantal roots are used in the derivation of actual words by adding the vowels and non-root consonants (or "transfixes") which go with a particular morphological category around the root consonants, in an appropriate way, generally following specific patterns. It is a peculiarity of Semitic linguistics that a large majority of these consonantal roots are triliterals (although there are a number of quadriliterals, and in some languages also biliterals). which Native American languages do not

4. does not answer a simple question: why is there no trace of archaeological elements (pottery, weapons, writings, skeletons, city walls, etc.) of Lamanites or Nephites or any Semites in North AMerica. REmember that they are supposed to have come in 600 BC and in 600 BC in the Old World they were using the wheel, which was not yet developed in the Americas -- but no trace of this. There is none of the Old World technology found here, not even in weaponry or agriculture or town-building. In contrast we have a lot of archaeological artifacts of Tolmecs, Olmecs, Toltecs etc. from before 600 BC. We even have traces of nomadic native American tribes (arrow heads etc.) but none that would indicate an advanced BOM-type civilisation or even a 600 BC level Old World civilisation.

5. does not answer a simple question: why is there no trace of stories of these Lamanites / Nephites among the native Americans. The native tribes keep tales of long-past times in their oral history yet there is not a hint and has never been any hint of Lamanites / Nephites.



6. does not answer a simple question: why is there no trace of cultural practises brought down from these Lamanites / Nephites.

[Cronos]

Funnee :-P

I'm sorry, J. Smith, but your works of fiction might have worked in the 19th century, but now in the age of the Internet, it's just so easy for anyone to see that they are works of fiction.

[Cronos]

Actually, that is not addressed at the links either:

1. your links do not address why there is no historical / archaeological / genetic / linguistic proof for Lamanites/Nephites. There were no Semitic peoples in pre-Columbine America

2. your links do not address why the Israelies, Jews, EArly Christians, indeed all Christians up to 1850 (J Smith) were monotheist while the Mormons believe in multiple gods.

[Cronos]

The link which you posted is not Rabbi Nissim Wernick’s Dissertation on the Book of Abraham.

Firstly, there is no Rabbi of that name in any Jewish rabbi lists. Do you have any links to this guy existing in any Jewish rabbinical school?

Secondly, that link does not address why the Book of Abraham has been shown to be a fictinalised, false translation of papyrus showing Anubus the egyptian god?

[Cronos]

Native Americans do NOT have any genes linking them to Semites. Not one gene, not one haplogroup, nothing. In contrast, Israeli populations in East Africa, Yemen, India etc. separated from the main Jewish population by centuries and with a lot of inter-marriages STILL retain Jewish genes. Ergo, there were no Semites in pre-Columbine America based on genetic evidence (also there is no historical/linguistic/archaeological/anthropological evidence either)

[ejonesie22]

does not answer any questions -- it obfuscates

LDS SOP

[ejonesie22]

While I understand your sentiments and share them to a great extent, after doing battle with Morg apologist for a sometime I have gotten to where Elsie and others have.

The frustration and the attitude of the Morg sometimes brings out a little sarcasm and their extreme attempts at spinning and obfuscation makes one want to scream a little...