Posted on 03/08/2011 10:19:18 AM PST by NYer
36 hours Graduate study concentration in are you ready for this scripture and History,any other smart commetns to make?
I took the literal words of the Bible and repeated them to you, if you want to rationalize your way around them that is fine but you do it only to your detriment
Whatever. I’m going with Faith and Works. Faith gives us the grace to do good works. “Blessed are they who .....[do something to enhance the kingdom of God] for theirs in the Kingdom of Heaven]
Christ’s death has made us without fault
But then answer the rest of scripture
"Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11–12). How can you fall if you are without fault?
You indeed just might be saved: “Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: Galatians 1:4 Might is a far cry from certainty.
And only IF you remain in his kindness. "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" Rom. 11:22–23 Clearly, you can be cut off. No certainty whatsoever.
And only IF you endure: Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. (2 Tim. 2:11–12). So what happens if you don’t endure?
And only IF you stand firm: [Jesus said] “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” Mark 13:13 And what happens if you don’t stand firm?
And only IF you do what God wants: “God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. (Rom. 2:6–8). Clearly what you do matters.
Wonderful question! The answer begins with an understanding of the meaning of "covenant." Many see Jesus on the Cross and think in juridical terms (condemned by our sins) or even contractual terms (He paid the price), and these are true... but insufficient. He is the sacrificial offering of the New Covenant. Covenant differs from contract as much as marriage differs from prostitution. One is family-making, the other is a business arrangement.
Since our fall in the Garden of Eden, God has been rebuilding His Family... following the same model as our Creation. In the Creation account, He worked by days providing first the form and second the inhabitants. In the first three days, He separated light from dark (day one), separated the waters above and below (day two) and gave us dry land with vegetation (day three). He then filled these realms; sun and moon (day four), birds and fish (day five), and animals and man (day six). He rested on the seventh day not out of fatigue but to mark his creation with a covenant... the number seven is a covenantal number. We broke this covenant through disobedience and so He set out again...
God made His first starting-over covenant with Noah and his family with the seven colors of the rainbow. God then made His family-rebuilding covenant with Abraham in the form of a three-fold promise... the land, a nation and all men blessed through him. God affirmed His covenant with Isaac (because Abraham had another son, Ishmael). God confirmed His covenant again with Jacob (because Isaac thought to pass his blessing through Esau). In these promises, the unbroken bloodline matters in fulfilling God's promise, but it is God, not the Earthly succession Who confirmed the line His promise would follow. God then began to fulfill these promises... the land through Moses on Sinai, the royal dynasty of David, and all people through Christ on the Cross. Seven covenants just like the seven days of creation.
In each successive covenant, God is growing his family... from the family of Noah to the tribe of Jacob to the Nation under David and then all nations under Christ. What was Christ doing on the Cross? He was the sacrificial offering of the New Covenant where man could be rejoined to God's family. Just as the neighbor kids can't become part of my family on their own--I have to adopt them--so we couldn't make ourselves part of God's family. The New Covenant is a return to our participation in the family life of God!
Just as we don't delight in the accomplishments of the neighbor kids, so God did not delight in our vain offerings before our redemption. Now, through Christ, God does delight and reward our efforts. In so many places in the New Testament we find that God will reward us for our deeds. That is because Christ has merited for us the ability to merit from God.
Christ on the Cross was at once Priest offering a sacrifice, the sacrificial Lamb of the New Covenant, and the Bridegroom to His Church. Now, in order to be part of His Family, we are commanded to 'believe.' However, believe is an action word. It doesn't mean that we have an intellectual understanding... just as my kids understand that school is important for them--but it doesn't do them any good until they actually go to school and participate. If we BELIEVE that Jesus is Christ, then we are to DO the Will of His Father... which begins our life in God's Family through baptism in His Name.
Christ on the Cross isn't the end from which there is no more to be done, it is the beginning from which all else is possible.
I don’t agree with your statement that the “key to the discussion...” is that we can choose to follow God or not.
All would agree that no human follows Jesus 100% of the time because we are sinners. Protestants accept that and don’t believe it has an impact on a believer’s salvation, because Jesus paid the penalty for sins once and for all. Are you implying that if a person chooses a path that is not following God just once when they have been faithful all other times then they don’t have a saving faith??? If so, that would include the whole world.
The Bible is clear: God gives us a choice.
Make of that what you will ... I tire of the argument, which is quite literally pointless.
“How can you fall if you are without fault?”
You are confusing 2 different topics. The statement “Christ’s death has made us without fault” refers to a person’s eternal standing before God or salvation.
While we are eternally saved from our sins because of Christ’s atonement, we still need to be santified and set apart for service here on earth. Eternally, we are blameless, but on a temporal level there are still consequences we have to deal with for our sin.
All the other points you mentioned about remaining firm, remaining in His kindness, etc. demonstrate there are some who do not have a sincere faith. Many will claim to be followers of Jesus but will wither away for a variety of reasons. Those who have a true faith and have believed will never fall away.
So you think that people “lose” their salvation daily every time they sin? No human is perfect - if they think they will choose to follow God all of the time they are mistaken.
I asked the same question of my 8th grade teacher after she told us she had no doubts regarding the truth of the gospel. Paul had the same sentiment: “I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.” Philippians 1:23-24
We are Christ’s ambassadors on Earth. (II Corinthians 5) We are to live our lives in such a way as to attract others to Him and give Him glory, and also to encourage others who are in the faith. Paul suffered greatly because of his faith in Christ. But he wrote a good portion of the New Tewstament and established the church in Europe. He did it out of love for Christ and for us.
Then why did Jesus say “It is finished” when He was on the cross and what was he referring to?
I guess the point went over your head, but that’s ok. I will explain. I am at the point that I had to respond in this manner. I sit here and watch with amazement the anti-protestant bias on these threads. The arrogance with the “The Church.” I am a brother in Christ whether you choose to accept that is your business. Maybe I should have included a sarcasm tag so the so called enlightened would actually understand my point.
You are just making this up. Show me the scripture that supports your made up belief.
The Scripture I cited shows just the opposite of your made up belief.
I am not a Pharisee nor a tax collector. I will answer you in the same manner I answered another.
I guess the point went over your head, but that’s ok. I will explain. I am at the point that I had to respond in this manner. I sit here and watch with amazement the anti-protestant bias on these threads. The arrogance with the “The Church.” I am a brother in Christ whether you choose to accept that is your business. Maybe I should have included a sarcasm tag so the so called enlightened would actually understand my point.
Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.
Remember what feast Christ was celebrating with His Apostles... Passover. They celebrated the first three cups in the upper room. The third cup (the cup of blessing) was the cup noted in the Synoptic Gospels. Jesus said He would not taste of the fruit of the vine again until He did so in His Kingdom. The Gospel then tells us they went out to the Garden of Gethsemane... but there was no fourth cup as is usual in the Passover meal (the cup of completion). In fact, Jesus prayed in the garden that this cup might pass Him by.
Now, Christ begins to offer Himself as the Passover Lamb. This is the Feast of the Unblemished Lamb. In this, the celebrant flays open the back of the lamb and holds it up so that the participants can see there are no blemishes. Just so, Christ's back was flayed open at the command of Pilate and Pilate also declared "I find no fault in Him." Christ was taken and killed on the Cross... but no bones were broken as was required of the Passover lamb. When His sacrifice was complete, He finished the Passover celebration of His own offering by asking for the hissop. Immediately after, He declared it (the Passover meal) finished and offered up His Spirit. His destiny is complete... He has offered Himself for us... it is finished. But it is not truly the end. If it was, there would be no resurrection!
Catholics see this as the first Mass. In the Mass, there is a homily. You can find Christ's homily in His exclamation, "My God, My God. Why have You foresaken me?" God did not abandon Christ on the Cross. There was no time in His Life that He was more adorable to His Heavenly Father than when He was fulfilling His destiny on the Cross! No, He was calling His witnesses to Psalm 22 to understand what they were seeing. It begins in agony but ends in triumph. These are His words from the Cross with the little breath He has. The unique nature of the exclamation and the beginning of the Psalm are not a coincidence.
And remember, this was Paul talking. He himself had no assurance of his own salvation, but had to work out his salvation in fear and trembling. What do you think that meams?
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