Posted on 05/09/2011 11:11:10 AM PDT by bronxville
So is it with the claims about pagan origins. What may seem to have a connection, upon further investigation, has no connection at all!By this method, one could take virtually anything and do the same—even the “golden arches” at McDonald’s! The Encyclopedia Americana (article: “Arch") says the use of arches was known in Babylon as early as 2020 B.C. Since Babylon was called “the golden city” (Isa. 14:4), can there be any doubt about the origin of the golden arches? As silly as this is, this is the type of proof that has been offered over and over about pagan origins.
By this method, atheists have long sought to discredit the Bible and Christianity altogether—not just the Roman Catholic Church.
By this method, one could condemn Protestant and evangelical denominations like the Assemblies of God, Baptist, Church of Christ, Lutheran, Methodist, Nazarene, etc. Basic things like prayer, and kneeling in prayer, would have to be rejected, because pagans knelt and prayed to their gods. Water baptism would have to be rejected, for pagans had numerous rites involving water, etc.
By this method, the BIBLE itself would need to be rejected as pagan. All of the following practices or beliefs mentioned in the Bible, were also known among pagans—raising hands in worship, taking off shoes on holy ground, a holy mountain, a holy place in a temple, offering sacrifices without blemish, a sacred ark, city of refuge, bringing forth water from a rock, laws written on stone, fire appearing on a person’s head, horses of fire, the offering of first fruits, tithes, etc.
By this method, the LORD himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in his hand (Psa. 75:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14). Pagans worshipped the sun; the Lord is the “Sun of righteousness” (Mal. 4:2). Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called “the bright and morning star” (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Psa. 91:4).
It's surprising how many earnest people get drawn into the same game Satan has been playing since the he fell, his web of lies. All the lies Satan has planted about the Catholic Church are applied to all other Christians as well no matter which denomination they're a part of. Those same lies are, of course, applied to all Christians by different authors than those who apply them only to the Catholic Church. Otherwise Protestants would catch on and realize just what a web of lies they've bought into and who is the real author of those lies.
Some who believe and spread these lies know they're deliberately lying to undermine Christianity, others have just been deceived. All of those spreading or accepting such lies need our prayers.
Regards
God did not borrow from the Pagans...The Pagans stole from God and added a lot of twists to their worship...
However, some things the Pagan rituals and practices they did not get from God and God condemned them for those practices such as worshiping the Queen of Heaven, bowing down to idols, etc...
But to offer a defense by claiming baptism must be bad because Pagans use water in rituals appears to be an act of desperation...
The Christmas tree started and was kept in the upper Rhineland of Germany only, until the 18th century. Really, it's alright to condemn Pagan religions that mimic Christianity but it's not alright to mimic Paganism even if their perverted evil practices originated with God...
The Christmas tree started and was kept in the upper Rhineland of Germany only, until the 18th century.
Actually the tree worship started back in the Old Testament...
The Romans, right up into the time of Jesus and the Apostles worshiped Diana, the Queen of Heaven...
You guys claim that Hislop and all anti-Catholic authors are low down liars but all you give us is a generic 'they are wrong, we are right'...
Perhaps you could get down to the nitty gritty and show us where and how Hislop is all lies...
I dunno about your family but no one worships Christmas trees. The tradition of the Christmas tree started post the Reformation in northern Germany and was regarded as a Protestant custom by the Roman Catholic majority along the lower Rhine and was spread there only by Prussian officials who were moved there in the wake of the Congress of Vienna in 1815.
Good, then go and ask the northern Germans after the Reformation why they started the custom of the Christmas tree
Do note that just because a Title was used by another religion does not denigrate Christianity. The term “King of Kings” was originally Persian and was the title of the Shah (actually his title was Shahenshah meaning King of Kings) and you can find the God of the OT referred to as Ba’al (literally “Sir”) and other semitic Gods given the name El or Adonai. Even the term God of Light has similarities in Zoroastrianism — do you condemn us Christians for using this term?
And you give us adequate proof of why your kind are wrong -- your basic facts are utterly wrong. Here's another blooper from you.
Diana was the goddess of the hunt. The Roman goddess consort of Jupiter and Jupiter's queen was Juno.
Anyone who cares whether they're right or wrong would do research into it themselves once they were told that so much is still based on the work of Hislop. In fact, the vast majority of those who quote Hislop directly and indirectly know full well he's wrong but enjoy having lengthy arguments over what academics have shown to be Hislop lies and flaws in order to have that much more opportunity to spew their BS. Nothing helps sell books and BS like tapping into the conspiracy mindset so common these days, the more ancient the conspiracy the better, and Hislop has a proven track record of massaging the conspiracy gland so many people have.
Anyone can use a search engine and weed out the load of crap that's based on him and lauding him in order to sell their latest book, then dig down through the well padded search results aimed as selling those books and find the honest, impartial, academic critiques, of what Hislop wrote. Once they know that much, they'll see how almost all anti-Catholic works launder references to Hislop through references to others and so on. If they care whether or not works based on Hislop are the truth and whether they may be believing those who quote lies as fact, I feel sure anyone reading here is capable of finding out the truth.
Arguing against a well known lie in those cases where someone quotes lies and didn't bother to research before quoting the lie is a waste of time. Those interested in truth will find the facts and those who aren't will believe what they want to believe or what is convenient for their agenda. Telling people who want the truth that the whole bookshelf anti-Catholic stuff now popular is based on Hislop is sufficient. Those interested in the truth will look into it and see what the facts are. Each person who does so will be one less person who believes the lies. That's far better than helping someone who doesn't care about the truth generate more opportunities to repeat those lies as well as others.
“The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors (or Christianity before Christ)”
“FRIENDS and brethren — teachers of the Christian faith: Will you believe us when we tell you the divine claims of your religion are gone — all swept away by the “logic of history,” and nullified by the demonstrations of science?”...
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/
This guy “proves” that ALL of Christianity itself is pagan. I’d be interested to get your feedback on it.
Are you a Hislop apologist?
http://newprotestants.com/2babylons.htm
http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html
Thanks for your interesting links. Ralph Woodrow admitted he was conned and has made well-documented convincing rebuttals. It’s difficult to understand but there are those who actually prefer to believe the lies.
HUMANUM GENUS
Pope Leo XIII April 20, 1884 - (excerpts)
‘The race of man, after its miserable fall from God, the Creator and the Giver of heavenly gifts, “through the envy of the devil,” SEPARATED INTO TWO DIVERSE AND OPPOSITE PARTS, of which the one steadfastly contends for truth and virtue, the other of those things which are contrary to virtue and to truth. THE ONE IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH...THE OTHER IS THE KINGDOM OF SATAN, in whose possession and control are all whosoever follow the fatal example of their leader and of our first parents, those who refuse to obey the divine and eternal law, and who have many aims of their own in contempt of God, and many aims also against God.’
‘THIS TWOFOLD KINGDOM St. Augustine keenly discerned and described after the manner of two cities, contrary in their laws because striving for contrary objects; and with a subtle brevity he expressed the efficient cause of each in these words: Two loves formed two cities: the love of self, reaching even to contempt of God, an earthly city; and the love of God, reaching to contempt of self, a heavenly one...’
‘The first warning of the danger was given by Clement XII in the year l738, and his constitution was confirmed and renewed by Benedict XIV. Pius VII followed the same path; and Leo XII, by his apostolic constitution, Quo Graviora, put together the acts and decrees of former Pontiffs on this subject, and ratified and confirmed them forever. In the same sense spoke Pius VIII, Gregory XVI, and, many times over.....’
‘Our duty to use Our authority to the very utmost against so vast an evil. We have several times already, as occasion served, attacked certain chief points of teaching which showed in a special manner the perverse influence of MASONIC opinions. Thus, in Our encyclical letter, Quod Apostolici Muneris, We endeavored to refute the monstrous doctrines of the SOCIALISTS AND COMMUNISTS...’
‘It is now Our intention, following the example of Our predecessors, directly to treat of the masonic society itself, of its whole teaching, of its aims, and of its manner of thinking and acting, in order to bring more and more into the light its power for evil, and to do what We can to arrest the contagion of this fatal plague.’
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18840420_humanum-genus_en.html
Pope Leo XII - Albert Pikes responded to Humanum Genus -
http://www.scribd.com/doc/911698/Humanum-Genus-Pope-Against-Freemasons-Albert-Pike-Response
In St Augustine’ time I believe there were at least 30 gnostic religions. The Holy Father(s) threw down the gauntlet - it’s astounding how Pope Leo XII and our other dear Popes were proven right in all of their predictions.
As Fred Hayek posted above - “There is nothing new about “New Age”,in fact it is the oldest lie. “The Serpent said to Eve “You shall be as gods...’”.”
It’s interesting that only Muslims and a small group of rabid anti-Catholics have continued to refer to Hislop both directly and indirectly since Hislop was thoroughly debunked by academics in the late thirties and again in the early fifties. It’s like people who refer to archaeological theories Nazi archaeologists formulated without bothering to mention that those theories were formulated to fit a specific preconception that furthered the Nazi agenda. There’s such a strong thread of Muslim misinformation through all of his conclusions that it seems to me he must have relied on the oral traditions of those who worked on digs more than the writings of the academics who had run them and studied the results. And that’s the most generous conclusion I could come to.
Diane had had many titles...One was the Moon Goddess...One was the Queen of Heaven...She was the daughter of Jupiter...
Juno is not mentioned in the scriptures...Diana is...
Act 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.
Diana was worshipped in ROME even thru the 15th and 16th Centuries...And still called the Queen of Heaven...
And you give us adequate proof of why your kind are wrong -- your basic facts are utterly wrong. Here's another blooper from you.
A little research on Diana and Rome and goddess worship makes you the blooper...
And yes, we DO know where your Queen of Heaven originated...And it wasn't the church that is the body of Jesus Christ...
Cronos (post 47): And you give us adequate proof of why your kind are wrong -- your basic facts are utterly wrong. Here's another blooper from you.
Diana was the goddess of the hunt. The Roman goddess consort of Jupiter and Jupiter's queen was Juno.
Diana never had the title of Queen of Heaven -- give me proof for your statement.
Do you know where the Title "King of Kings" originated? Did you know that that was the term used of various chief gods as well as of the Persian Emperor (Shahenshah) -- do you now claim that Christianity is paganism?
you can find the God of the OT referred to the “Sun of righteousness” (Mal. 4:2) and pagan gods were compared to stars and other semitic Gods given the name El or Adonai. Even the term God of Light has similarities in Zoroastrianism — do you condemn us Christians for using this term?
Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Psa. 91:4). — do you now claim that the Lord is the same as these pagan gods because of the same symbolism?
Do you consider the Bible pagan for calling Jesus this same title (Rv 17:14; 19:16)?
Cronos (post 47): And you give us adequate proof of why your kind are wrong -- your basic facts are utterly wrong. Here's another blooper from you.
Diana was the goddess of the hunt. The Roman goddess consort of Jupiter and Jupiter's queen was Juno.
Diana never had the title of Queen of Heaven -- give me proof for your statement.
Do you have anything original??? Your cut and paste without attribution makes it look like these are your words...Which they are not...
Oh c'mon...It's all over the internet...Google goddess Diana and you'll be inundated with source material...
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