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To: odds

The exact term used was “Haber,” which referred to a religion which had a holiday in which fires were forbidden, and the Talmud speaks of emergency situations when the “Haberim” were persecuting Jews for lighting Hanuka candles, when it was permitted to light in your own home, rather than at a door adjacent to the street, as is preferred. These were people who worshiped the sun and the fire, a dualist theology, one good and one evil, perhaps a pre-Christian form of Manicheanism. Is this Zoroastrianism? Perhaps the name Haber refers to some other Persian religion. It was most definitely Persian, though, and still going strong in the post-Julian Roman Empire. To the best of my recollection, the discussion about which gentiles are the most obstreperous and which the least was somewhere in Tractate Shabbat, which is voluminous.


38 posted on 07/08/2011 9:20:28 AM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today)
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To: Eleutheria5; Cronos; FARS
There are several parts, some distinct, others interrelated in your last post. So, I’ll try to break in down in order to simplify, and, hopefully, avoid further convolution.

The exact term used was “Haber,” which referred to a religion which had a holiday in which fires were forbidden, and the Talmud speaks of emergency situations when the “Haberim” were persecuting Jews for lighting Hanuka candles, when it was permitted to light in your own home, rather than at a door adjacent to the street, as is preferred.

I’m not familiar with the term “Haber” or "Haberim" & have not come across it until now. My guess was that it is a Hebrew term? Maybe Turkish? It definitely is not a Persian or Indo-European word. “Haberim” is definitely not an Iranian (Persian) religion. However, in doing a quick search just now for "Haberism" (not "Haberim"), I found this bit of info - which seems to be related to the Jews, themselves.

I’m familiar with Hanukka (an 8 day long Jewish Festival of Light), which usually falls between late Nov to late Dec? Often coinciding with Christmas, and an ancient Iranian (not Zoroastrian) festival called “Yalda” (a Syric word). In Persian it is known as “Shab_e Cheleh (night of the 40th). Yalda (a pre Zoroastrian festival) leads me to the next part below...

These were people who worshiped the sun and the fire, a dualist theology, one good and one evil, perhaps a pre-Christian form of Manicheanism. Is this Zoroastrianism? Perhaps the name Haber refers to some other Persian religion. It was most definitely Persian, though, and still going strong in the post-Julian Roman Empire.

Keywords in this part of your post is “Sun” & then “dualist theology”. My immediate thought was, & now am convinced you were referring to “Mithraism”. No, it is not Zoroastrianism, nor Manicheanism. Manicheanism came centuries after Zoroastrianism, during Parthian (Arsacid) dynasty, was invented by an Arsacid “Iranian” (not Persian) called Mani. Its theology draws upon & mixes elements from Zoroastrianism, Christianity & Buddhism.

Mithraism or Mithra (aka in Persian as “Mehr”) was a very ancient Iranian deity (Sun god or god of light). It is considered Pagan by Zoroastrian (Gathic or core) standards & beliefs. It is, definitely, pre-Zoroastrian. Though still existed & had numerous followers, mainly among Aryan (by extension Persian) soldiers/warriors, during & to some extent, after Zoroaster.

An image of the ancient "Pagan" Indo-Aryan Sun-god “Mithra” (not the same as Zoroastrianism)

Yalda celebrations in Iran originate from Mithraism, but also incorporate those of Babylonians. Pre-Zoroaster & most definitely pre-Christ, were exported to Pagan Europe & Roman Empire. In Europe it was known as “Saturnali” or “Sol Invicta”. Nonetheless, I have so far not come across any historical account which states or even suggests “persecution of Jews during Hanukka celebrations” in Iran, during Yalda. Nor limiting Hanukka celebrations, in any way, in Iran, during Yalda celebrations.

A photo of a simple Yalda table (a syric word, known in Persian language as “Shab_e Cheleh” = Night of the 40th)

Other points worth mentioning:

Zoroastrianism is Not Zurvanism, Mazdakism, Mazdaism, Paganism, Hinduism, Manicheanism, Magism, Shi'ism, or any other that have borrowed elements from Zoroaster's teachings, and subsequently have misunderstood & represented a corrupt form of the original Faith & belief system taught by Zoroaster (an Aryan), himself, of the Vedic age (between 1500 to 500 BC).

Zoroaster, himself, taught pure Monotheism (Ahura Mazda). Zoroastrianism is strictly a Monotheistic belief system (religion) that puts heavy emphasis on ethics, not just morals. It is a reflective rather than prescriptive religion (IOW, it provides key guidelines for its followers & directly encourages them to seek knowledge & truth & reflect within these guidelines).

Zoroaster’s teachings also highly value & advocate free will & the use of one’s mental faculties in discerning between what is good and what is evil. Because thinking underlies our words & actions, and that our thoughts, words & actions have consequences (cause & effect). So, one must choose carefully, but is free to choose between good & evil. The concept of duality also refers to a progressive vs. regressive mind (thinking). Our thoughts, words & hence actions, which will consequently lead to either chaos or order (Durj vs. Asha). Zoroastrians only worship Mazda Ahura. They are Not “fire or sun-worshippers". Just as one can't say Christians are 'cross-worshippers' or Jews 'worship' the Tree of Life or Star of David.

Light, sun & fire are strictly symbolic in Zoroastrianism & represent qualities that are positive & optimistic, rather darkness which symbolically represents negativity, evil, death or a regressive mentality. The basic idea behind it is to think & say & do good so that we as human beings constantly strive towards "wholeness or perfection" (Haurvatat in Avestan language), that is to say closer to God. That's the continuous struggle between "Good and Evil" often associated with Zoroastrianism.

An image of Zoroaster (which is a Greek word) - known as Zarathushtra or Zartosht in modern Persian

Zoroaster, actually, rose against Mithraism or Mithra, because in Mithra, the oneness of God was not known to the people, plus the fact that in Mithra, sacrificing animals and also consumption of narcotics and intoxicating beverages (called Haoma) that desist the people from good reflection, were prevalent.

His adherents decided to follow his teachings & still do. But pre-Zoroastrian cultural celebrations remained. Though were very much modified & in some cases have been incorporated in ancient & present day Iranian (Persian) holidays & festivals.

If one wants to understand what Zoroaster taught, the only bona fide text to refer to is the Gathas -- translation of the Gathas - (hymns spoken by Zoroaster, himself). -- A basic overview of Zoroastrian concepts and beliefs -- Zoroastrian Faith & Festivals -- very good site with lots of information and photos – though it is written by a Parsi Zoroastrian (the community in India), not Iranian one in Iran.

44 posted on 07/10/2011 1:24:19 AM PDT by odds
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