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To: Cronos

The following link offers a sold rebuttal to the catholic position of literally eating the flesh and blood of Jesus

http://www.justforcatholics.org/bread.htm


67 posted on 05/11/2011 9:17:36 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: Turtlepower
And here is the proof that that website is wrong

First, the website says Jesus used figurative language to emphasize these great spiritual truths. -- BUT, it forgets that

  1. Jesus said first
    35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty
    They asked Him for a sign, saying that Moses gave them manna in the desert. If Jesus (according to them) was aspiring to the level of Moses, He should do something as big as that.

    and Jesus says something strange to them -- He says Moses didn't give you bread, My father did, and bread that comes down from heaven. Then He says that HE is the bread of life, HE is the manna -- and manna was to be eaten.

    The people around Him made the same mistake you did, which is to think he was speaking as a metaphor.

    Yet Jesus REPEATED the same thing, saying
    48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.
    50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
    51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
    And now the crowd is openly rebellious saying “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
    And
    53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
    54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
    55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
    56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
    57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
    58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.

  2. Jesus doesn't clear up the Metaphor, like he did in Matt. 16:5–12
    5 When they went across the lake, the disciples forgot to take bread.
    6 “Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
    7 They discussed this among themselves and said, “It is because we didn’t bring any bread.”
    8 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread?
    9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?
    10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?
    11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
    12 Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
    So, Jesus DOES indicate when it is a metaphor and when it isn't.

  3. In this case, look at the reaction of his DISCIPLES, people who had heard his teachings for so long and followed him
    60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”...

    66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
    You cannot say that this was just bread and wine of that this is a metphor for coming and having faith in the Lord or some kind of metphor for believing in Christ because of the reaction of the Jews and the very language -- to eat one's flesh and drink the blood means to do violence on some one. You see it even in Hindi where a threat is "Mein tera Khoon pie jaongaa" or "I will drink your blood" -- and this is among vegetarians! To drink a persons blood means a serious threat of injury.So, if you believe that this was just a metphor, you mean to say that Christ is rewarding people for crucifying Him?!! That's nonsensical, sorry

  4. You cannot even say it was a metaphor by incorreclty comparing it to John 10:9 (I am the gate/doorway) or John 15:1 (I am the true vine) is because this is not referenced in the entire verse in the same way as John 6 which shows the entire incident from start to finish of Jesus saying His body is to be eaten, repeating it and seeing his disciples go and not correcting them (as he did in Matthew 16).

  5. Even in the literal sense -- Christ says he is the gateway to heaven and the vine such that we get nourishment with him as the connecting path. But John 6 is much much more than mere symbolism as He categorically states that "For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:55).

  6. Even at the end of John 6, Jesus rebukes those who think of what He has said as a metaphor by emphasising that
    61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
    62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
    63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
    64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”
    Jesus repeats the rebuke against just thinking in terms of human logic (Calvin's main problem) by saying
    John 8:15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.
    16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.
    Just using human logic as Calvinist thought does, without God's blessings behind it fails in grace.John 6:63 does not refer to Jesus's statement of his own flesh, if you read in context but refers to using human logic instead of dwelling on God's words.

  7. all of this is confirmed in Paul's writings to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 10:16)
    6 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
    and also 1 Cor 11:27-29
    27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
    28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
    29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
    How clear can Paul get? "The bread IS a participation in the body of Christ" and "who eats the bread... will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord" -- why if this is not the Body and Blood of Jesus?

Can you answer any of these points? Your website certainly can't

72 posted on 05/11/2011 9:38:24 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Turtlepower
And, furthermore, the website plays fast and loose with Augustine. Have you ever read him? you will see just how much this website and any others you may read that are anti-Christ distort the truth
  1. Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]). "Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" -- pretty clear, eh?

  2. Sermons 227 [A.D. 411])
    "I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s table. . . . That bread that you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ"
    -- crystal clear again

  3. again from Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]
    "What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction"
    -- very clear, eh?

I would suggest that you read through and doubt these liars who tell you such lies that Jesus did not inaugurate the Eucharist. Truth in Jesus Christ, the Lord, God and SAvior. To the Glory of GOD, not man.

74 posted on 05/11/2011 9:45:51 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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