[Salvation]

Michael Barber is a Professor of Theology. I'm judging that this needs to be an open thread, but dare I hope that it can be a charitable one?

[Salvation]

Catholic Discussion Ping!

[narses]

+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

[RobRoy]

Is this a joke thread. five very concise and clear questions were asked, the author said he was going to answer them. The author then went off on tangents, quoted not a single line of scripture, and offered not even a tiny sample of an answer.

Or is this the first of 237 installments? :D

[presently no screen name]

but dare I hope that it can be a charitable one

What is charitable to you? Don't say anything against what your church teaches? Some of us are into love - and that requires telling the Truth. And nothing charitable about withholding Truth.

I am citing from official Church documents. And I’m doing so in their own words.

No Christian is interested in man made doctrine and 'their own words'. Christians follow Jesus Christ and they have HIS OWN Holy Spirit Inspired Words in His Book. Thank YOU, JESUS for YOUR Word!

[boatbums]

I think it is hubris for the author to assume that anyone who disagrees with Catholic theology is "ignorant". It is also not correct that Protestants misunderstand Catholic theology by disagreeing about the doctrine of justification. To say we are saved by grace is true and the Roman Catholic catechism does state this as does Trent, however, the real dispute is concerning the place of faith. From the canons of the Council of Trent we read:

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVII.-If any one saith, that there is no mortal sin but that of infidelity; or, that grace once received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous, save by that of infidelity ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

I read these and, realizing that they were done as a refutation to the Reformation, I see that these very words dispute that man is saved by grace THROUGH faith and NOT by works. It is one thing to assert we are saved by grace and quite another to say that we attain God's grace through faith apart from our own merit. We are saved by either grace or works and the two cannot be combined. Either eternal life is a gift or it is earned. Anytime good works are mandated as the way to attain the gift, it stops being a gift. It stops being by grace.

When James speak about faith being dead apart from works, it is obvious that he means that good works are how true faith is recognized by others. We show others our faith by our actions but our good acts do not earn the gift of eternal life since all throughout Scripture we are told we cannot ever do enough to pay the penalty of our own sins. Only the blood of Jesus can redeem us. Only by his sacrifice is our sin debt paid. We have been saved by his grace and we receive this grace through faith.

[Jvette]

but dare I hope that it can be a charitable one

Apparently not.

[Bigg Red]

Bless Mr. Barber for trying and bless you, my dear FRiend, for hoping that we could get somewhere. But, alas, the anti-Catholic swamp of vitriol is impenetrable here.