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To: Natural Law; daniel1212; Cronos; kosta50; Notwithstanding; MarkBsnr; bronx2; Quix; RnMomof7
Is it hubris, vanity, arrogance, or that smugness thing you mentioned that would compel anyone to claim for themselves the gifts of the early fathers?

Tsk, tsk. None of the above.

I've never had the opportunity to speak directly with anyone who believed in their own infallibility with respect to interpretation

Your error is in thinking people think they're infallible. Infallibility isn't left to individuals including the Pope. The church fathers subscribed infallibility ONLY to the scriptures. Every other writing is subject to error. However, it is the Pope who put into church doctrine that he is infallible-something even the Orthodox laugh at.

The fact is the church fathers tells us what is infallible. That doesn't make the writings infallible. The writings were infallible BEFORE the father told us so. The fathers simply confirm it to be so and they tell us that by saying the scriptures were "given to us by God".

Anything within the scripture is the word of God and is profitable for teaching and reproof. The same cannot be said about the teachings of the Church. Most of the scriptures are very clear. People just don't wish to see their reflection in it. It's not pretty.

80 posted on 05/26/2011 2:16:32 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; Natural Law; daniel1212; Cronos; Notwithstanding; MarkBsnr; bronx2; Quix; RnMomof7
The writings were infallible BEFORE the father told us so

How do you know that? Which writings did that include?

If no interpreter is infallible, then whose interpretation is infallible? And how would you know, being fallible?

The fathers simply confirm [the writings] to be [infallible] and they tell us that by saying the scriptures were "given to us by God". Where does the Bible say which books are infallible?

Anything within the scripture is the word of God and is profitable for teaching and reproof

And that was asserted by the "infallible" mortal, by the pseudonym Paul? Because he says so? Oh wait, because he was "inspired"? Because he says so? Why do you think God would need imperfect, mortal "prophets" to communicate with his creatures?

If his truth is inscribed in their hearts, as the book claims, so that no one needs others to teach them, why do they still need writings and teachers and preachers?

84 posted on 05/26/2011 3:14:33 AM PDT by kosta50
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To: HarleyD
"The church fathers subscribed infallibility ONLY to the scriptures."

So how do you, Harley, know what Scripture means and which of the many competing interpretations are correct?

Equally, how do you infallibly know the interpretations of the Catholic Church are wrong?

Do you defer to an expert, a pastor, someone more studied than you or do you reply only on your gut feelings? No Catholic will argue that Scripture is errant or fallible, but language, culture and human reasoning is.

98 posted on 05/26/2011 7:08:12 AM PDT by Natural Law
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To: HarleyD
"The church fathers subscribed infallibility ONLY to the scriptures."

I would encourage you to actually educate yourself on the doctrines of the Church before you make anymore fallible conclusions. The Magisterium is not just a single Pope or even the current Pope. It is the entire 2000 year collective Episcopacy of the Church acting and speaking in unison. With the exception of the letters of Peter, which is a special case, there have only been two instances of a Pope issuing an infallible (ex cathedra) opinion.

100 posted on 05/26/2011 8:02:18 AM PDT by Natural Law
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