Posted on 05/24/2011 8:44:52 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
--1 Cor 10:1-12
I though when they are baptized they are transformed to hate sin. The evidence seems ot be lacking that this is so.
I didn't say it was illogical. I said you cannot prove it with logic.
Then it's illogical. It's like saying 2 + 2 = 5. You say it's true and I say prove it. Okay, so let's say you are right...what can you prove it withW?
I personally do not believe faith and reason are incompatible
What do you base your 'reason' on if it isn't on logic?
God chooses to use prophets (no quotes needed) because He chooses to work through Humans, perhaps because it teaches the people involved something.
Perhaps? Are you guessing? And how do you know that that's what he wants? You read it from the self-styled "prophets", didn't you?
Start at the point of where you are. If you don't even know if God exists, or even what God is, or what to call divine and what to call worldly, then ask Him to resolve that.
Well, why don't you tell me how he resolved it for you? What am I supposed to do? Listen for "voices"...from the heaven "KOSTA!...here I am [like he doesn't know]...?
What I am trying to get over is that belief is a combination of many things - reason, emotion, passion, faith
It can't be reason, because it's illogical. The rest is fluff. Your fancy. Frankly I don't feel like talking to the air. God supposedly knows your thoughts and desires. No need to talk to the air. I have done my share of that. The world is the way it is even if we don't understand it. If there is God and he wants me to know something, he will let me know. God is not my busboy who waits for me to call.
Eastern Christianity believes that God makes the first move. He knocks on your door and it is up to you to open it and let him in. You don't call God to answer you because you want him to prove himself to you! The East would call that the "ugly twins", arrogance and pride, of the fallen humanity.
And who is God referring to in that passage? And when?
Reveal himself to you how? How do you know it's God? 2 Cor 11:14 "...even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."
I dont know how God will choose to reveal himself to you. He stands at the door and knocks. Do you think He would not come in if you opened the door? I dont believe he would allow satan to answer a prayer like that. Would he give you a stone if you asked for bread?
Whose are they? Klingons'?
As we are discussing whether they are God's creations or Man's creations, and you allege they are Man's, and I am stating they are not, then clearly I think they are God's creations. And as these are communications from God, then to be effective communications, people would have to relate to them. Therefore there is a cultural influence. QED.
Ok, then who or what do you believe is controlling your life?
Surely that kind of means they are bad at being Christians rather than that Christianity is wrong...
Two thousand years is bad track record.
It is if you only look at the negative column. Are you honestly suggesting that every single Christian over the last two thousand years has been a complete and utter failure at practicing their faith? Are you seriously saying that the influence of Christianity in all its forms in every nation has been wholly bad?
Kind of suggests that theory is wrong then.
Then it's illogical. It's like saying 2 + 2 = 5.
No it isnt. Not at all.
You say it's true and I say prove it. Okay, so let's say you are right...what can you prove it withW?
Only example. Nothing that would convince you.
What do you base your 'reason' on if it isn't on logic?
I base it on logic, the same as everyone else. This really isnt all that hard to follow. I am saying that faith is reasonable. Belief in God is reasonable. I cannot prove God's existence solely with reason, but the idea of God does hang together logically.
Perhaps? Are you guessing?
Yes.
And how do you know that that's what he wants? You read it from the self-styled "prophets", didn't you?
No.
Well, why don't you tell me how he resolved it for you? What am I supposed to do? Listen for "voices"...from the heaven "KOSTA!...here I am [like he doesn't know]...?
I am perfectly prepared to tell you, if you are really serious when you said "you respect my faith" earlier. Because there is scant evidence of that right now.
It can't be reason, because it's illogical.
It can be, because it isn't illogical. I've spent some time and effort trying to explain that.
The rest is fluff. Your fancy. Frankly I don't feel like talking to the air. God supposedly knows your thoughts and desires. No need to talk to the air. I have done my share of that. The world is the way it is even if we don't understand it.
There's a lot of anger and pain here isn't there? I'm so sorry.
If there is God and he wants me to know something, he will let me know. God is not my busboy who waits for me to call.
I'm sure he will. It's not a question of God being in your pocket and under your control, to be snapped out every time you have a problem. God delights in us talking to Him.
Eastern Christianity believes that God makes the first move. He knocks on your door and it is up to you to open it and let him in. You don't call God to answer you because you want him to prove himself to you! The East would call that the "ugly twins", arrogance and pride, of the fallen humanity.
I believe that God makes the first move too. I don't call God just to prove His existence - in my case doing that was the way I answered the "knock on the door". I was just suggesting that you try that, if you were having so much trouble in believing God's very existence. You may have given up on Him, but He won't give up on you. Not this side of glory.
And how am I to know it is God?
How do you know what God would do? In the OT God sends deceiving spirits.
My physical makeup and the physical world around me.
Are you honestly suggesting that every single Christian over the last two thousand years has been a complete and utter failure at practicing their faith?
No, but Christianity in general has failed, imo. It has splintered into numerous sects and cults, and is nowhere even close to coming to be of one mind. Two thousand years and counting...
Maybe the whole premise is.
[Then it's illogical. It's like saying 2 + 2 = 5] No it isnt. Not at all.
2 + 2= 5 is not illogical? Really?
Only example. Nothing that would convince you
Are you now mind-reading?
I am saying that faith is reasonable. Belief in God is reasonable. I cannot prove God's existence solely with reason, but the idea of God does hang together logically.
Well, given that nothing you read in the Bible corresponds to reality as we know it, it does seem illogical.
[And how do you know that that's what he wants? You read it from the self-styled "prophets", didn't you?] No.
Okay, then how do you know that's what he wants?
There's a lot of anger and pain here isn't there? I'm so sorry
You are mind reading again.
I am perfectly prepared to tell you, if you are really serious when you said "you respect my faith" earlier. Because there is scant evidence of that right now
I respect your faith; I don't have to accept it or believe it. One thing is certain: I will not presume to be called to read your mind, "pity" you, or psychoanalyze, as you seem to feel entitled to do with me.
God delights in us talking to Him
Why?
I believe that God makes the first move too.
Then why should I make the first move, as you suggested?
I don't call God just to prove His existence - in my case doing that was the way I answered the "knock on the door".
Well, I don't hear anyone knocking. All I see is you telling me to ask God to show himself to me, so I would know, and then telling me God makes the first move!
I was just suggesting that you try that, if you were having so much trouble in believing God's very existence
Why don't you tell me what God is first and then I will tell you if I doubt his existence.
You may have given up on Him, but He won't give up on you. Not this side of glory.
Well, first, how do you know that? And second, I gave up on other people's God tales. I don't know what God is, so how can I give up on God? I only know what people like you, are telling me what their idea of God is.
How do you know anything? How do you know I am really here? How do you know if you are actually at your computer now? You could be in a hospital bed in a coma dreaming it all. Rationally, any of those are perfectly possible, and perfectly arguable. On balance, you operate on the premise that they aren't so and that the world is as you see it. You have to do that, otherwise you would never do anything. You can run, you can hide, you can prevaricate and you argue, but you are operating on faith (irrationality and illogicality, if you want to call it that). Similarly, in your dealings with God, it is a leap of faith that is required.
I cannot fully understand the mind and will of God, of course. I am a man and God is God. However, I can draw conclusions about the nature and character of God based on 1) statements from His word, the Bible. 2) My own personal experiences. 3)The experiences of others. 4) Logical deduction. 5) Divine indwelling and/or revelation.
How can you possibly know that? Is the physical world around immutable? Is it fully understood? Is there anything else apart from the physical world? If there is, how could you use the physical world to detect it?
No, but Christianity in general has failed, imo. It has splintered into numerous sects and cults, and is nowhere even close to coming to be of one mind. Two thousand years and counting...
I disagree that is has failed, imo. And two thousand years is nothing compared to eternity. We are not finished yet.
You are twisting my meaning. I did not say that 2+2=5 is not illogical. I said that it (the premise of belief and faith) is not like 2+2=5.
Only example. Nothing that would convince you. Are you now mind-reading?
No, I am drawing conclusions based on your previous statements and arguments.
Well, given that nothing you read in the Bible corresponds to reality as we know it, it does seem illogical.
Well, given that, it would seem illogical. However, I don't believe your initial premise. To me a lot of what you read in the Bible is eminently practical and very closely tied to reality.
You are mind reading again.
No, I am drawing conclusions based on the bile-filled and bitter statements you came out with.
I respect your faith; I don't have to accept it or believe it. One thing is certain: I will not presume to be called to read your mind, "pity" you, or psychoanalyze, as you seem to feel entitled to do with me.
For sure you don't have to accept or believe my faith, or my interpretation of faith. It's completely up to you. I would not dream of trying to foist them upon you. I don't think you respect it one little bit. The remaining statements, I'm sorry to say, are total hypocritical nonsense. You have done nothing but presume on what its in my head since this thread started, and to "psychoanalyse" me. Your very first statement slagged me off for saying everything Mr Camping stood for was wrong, when I did no such thing.
Why?
Don't you get enjoyment from social interaction?
Then why should I make the first move, as you suggested?
God puts out his hand to all of us, but you have to grasp it.
Well, I don't hear anyone knocking. All I see is you telling me to ask God to show himself to me, so I would know, and then telling me God makes the first move!
Well you won't hear if you don't want to hear. Do you want to hear God knocking on the door, or would you want him to break it down? God has made the first move. He sent his son to this earth. Does that not merit a response?
Touch, feel, see, measure, detect, etc. That tells me that something exists outside of my head. What it is is a different story. My question to you had to do with a "different story." You have to know the essence to recognize the form. How do I know that what's "knocking" on this proverbial door is God? What is God, V9? Do you hear soemone knocking?
Do you hear voices in your head and think they are real? I am beginning to wonder. You are dangerously close to drawing a line between fantasy and relaity and saying they are one and the same.
Do you think claiming voices in your head from God telling you to do something would hold up in court? Why should it hold here?
If I ask you to find a prestigit, will you know what what it is? Use some common sense. We operate in a certain way because of the way we are put together. We can't operate outside those limits. We need ot know what makes tree a tree before we can distinguish between a bush and a tree. Essence before form.
You can run, you can hide, you can prevaricate and you argue, but you are operating on faith (irrationality and illogicality, if you want to call it that). Similarly, in your dealings with God, it is a leap of faith that is required
That is sophism. Put your hand on a hot stove top or jump from 10th story window and then tell me this is you dreaming in a coma...see how much your faith stops your hand from burning and your body from splashing. Go ahead, make that leap and see if you can walk in the air!
You are making a BLIND supposition that some non-defined entity you call Gad exists. Why not blindly believe that there are dozens of gods? Or no gods? You seem to be creating "reality" in your mind and then forcing the world to conform to it.
Hey, if you wish to live in that world, fine, but don't claim it's how things are because the world we all know is not that way.
More circular reasoning. You can draw conclusions about God from his word? How do you know it's his word? Because you CHOOSE to believe it! That is your decision. Don't you get it. There are billions of people on this earth who CHOOSE to believe in another "word of god".
Neither your choice, nor your personal experience (which could be anything, even abnormal), nor the experience of others, and especially not logical deduction in this case is a proof of anything.
People dying for their faith is no proof. Daily Islamic nuts blow themselves up for their faith. Experience of others could be just as nutty. Just ask the Jim Jone or David Koresh crowd. Or the Fatima "witnesses" in 1917. Or the "personal experience" of the Medjugorje "witness". You can apply logic only if you assume that your assumptions really exist, and for that you need proof that they do first and foremost.
Divine indwelling/revelation is like thin air. Zoroastrianism is also a "revealed" religion. So is Islam. is that a proof they are "true"? Why should I believe you that there is some "spirit" indwelling you, whispering in your ear? If you believe it, fine, but don't expect others to buy into it.
So, what's the point you are trying to make? You can't prove a single thing you say. All your reasons have exceptions and can be shown to be no proof of any kind. It all come down to you making a choice, for whatever reason. If you are hoping to "preach" to me in hopes of converting me, I'd say go get a job and give to charity. It will be more productive.
The evidence so far shows that we are driven and controlled by the physical makeup of the world. Our own makeup determines what we see, feel, etc. We don't see, smell or smell what dogs can. And dogs cana't talak because they have no vocal chords.
Our own size and weight and makeup determines which aspects of the physical world matter and which don't. To an insect gravity has a different effect than to us. But to an insect surface tension is a heck of a lot more pertinent then to us.
Now, you don't have to believe me. You can leap off the Empire State Building and see how long you will "float' in the air while flapping your arms. And then before you hit the ground you can convince yourself your are just dreaming this in a coma. In fact, put your hand on a red hot stove top and try the same conviction. May I suggest not to watch Harry Potter movies too much?
I disagree that is has failed, imo. And two thousand years is nothing compared to eternity. We are not finished yet.
Hey, one can rationalize everything. Maybe it's all a dream in a coma, so it doesn't matter, right? But for us who like to live in the real world, Christianity sure seems disunited, divisive, splintering and just plain ugly at times. That is hardly a convergent trend towards one mind.
As for eternity...you and I know about it as much as we know what will happen the enxt day.
I was once an atheist, and no amount of preaching without proof could have brought me to my faith. It has nothing to do with an agnostic or even an atheist having a closed mind. It has everything to do with the "preacher" not having a valid argument.
If he doesn't have proof, he should just drop the preaching and maybe talk about the wonderful ways his life is fulfilled in his faith. After that, there's plenty of time to work with a nice organization like Orthodox Christian Charities :)
Oh, yes? How so? You are telling me things that don't reflect the real world and then tell me they are logical!?
No, I am drawing conclusions based on your previous statements and arguments
I never said or hinted that nothign will convince me.
To me a lot of what you read in the Bible is eminently practical and very closely tied to reality.
Like what? Talking donkeys?
I don't think you respect it one little bit.
I respect your decision to choose to believe something. It's your world as much as it is mine. I don't have to agree with your reasons, but I respect your right to choose. I don't know what brought you to your faith, and I don't judge. If people tell me something, I listen to them and move on. If they ask what I think, I will tell them. If they want to debate it, I will debate it. That's respect.
Your very first statement slagged me off for saying everything Mr Camping stood for was wrong, when I did no such thing.
Because that's how you worded it.
Don't you get enjoyment from social interaction?
Depends on the company and the purpose.
God puts out his hand to all of us, but you have to grasp it
I don't see any God putting out his hand to anyone, including me.
Well you won't hear if you don't want to hear.
So, now you are saying that God will appear if I WANT him to appear?
Do you want to hear God knocking on the door, or would you want him to break it down?
Why would he do that?
God has made the first move. He sent his son to this earth. Does that not merit a response?
This is a matter of one's belief. I can't debate something you have predetermined in your head, but I know that you have so far not been able to show me that any of it is true or has any basis in reality. Muslims believe that Mohammad is a prophet; they blow themsleves up for their faith. Does that make it true? I don't think so.
All you are basically saying is this: "This is how it is because I believe it is, I have no proof that it is, but I know that it is, so it must be true." That's pontificating, my friend.
I am open to hear his argument but his argument so far has not been very fruitful, so I was merely suggesting something that might do more good. I am not saying he is wrong. He is just not convincing.
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