Posted on 06/12/2011 10:10:18 AM PDT by Colofornian
There were all kinds of comments by online readers @ Utah newspapers in '08 who said they wouldn't vote for Christian candidates. Obviously, I was speaking especially when a Mormon is running vs. a non-Mormon...
And here's the evidence on that:
Portion One: (Courtesy of Szonian having just posted this June 6...http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2730183/posts?q=1&;page=101 -- post #140)
Utah Republican primary, 2008
Official Results
Candidate-—————Votes—————Percentage
Mitt Romney————264,956—————89.49%
John McCain-————15,931-—————5.38%
Ron Paul-——————8,846-—————2.99%
Mike Huckabee-———4,252-—————1.44%
Rudy Giuliani-—————988-—————0.33%
Fred Thompson-————613-—————0.21%
Alan Keyes——————261-—————0.09%
Duncan Hunter—————211-—————0.07%
Tom Tancredo——————3-—————0.00%
Total———————296,061-—————100%
First Obvious Conclusion: Romney got 89.5% of the vote; McCain, 5.4%
Second Portion
"While the former Massachusetts governor’s faith has been a flashpoint in his campaign, it was perhaps one of his strongest assets in Utah, where more than 60% of the state’s residents share his faith. Exit poll data shows Romney swept voters across the board, handily winning every social, economic, and generational demographic in the state, as well as 94% of all Mormon voters." (Susan Davis, Wall Street Journal, Feb. 5, 2008, Romney Wins Utah With Help From Friends [Note: The Wall Street Journal was citing MSNBC.msn.com...those exit polls; poster colorcountry was citing the same % late first week Feb. '08 (either Feb. 7 or Feb. 8) from CNN-reported exit polls re: weekly non-Catholic church attenders in Utah]
Conclusion: I think this blogger makes my point well:
To be sure, I am frustrated with Evangelicals that are voting for Governor Huckabee solely based on the fact that he used to be a pastor (and even more frustrated that Huckabee is running on nothing but that). But I have to laugh when Romney supporters claim that there is religious bigotry among Evangelicals. The reason I have to laugh is that Mitt Romney got 92% of the Republican vote in Utah. 92%!!!! That’s ridiculous for any candidate. If Mormons want to throw stones at Evangelical voters for voting on the wrong thing, they first need to step out of their glass house. A voting block that large in Utah seems to be just as clearly drawn down religious lines as voting trends in the Bible Belt (if not more so). If it’s wrong to vote against Romney because he’s a Mormon, it’s equally wrong to vote for him because he’s Mormon.
Source: Politically speaking: Lds & Evangelical Conversations
Still with the anti-Christian meme I see. Get you knickers all knotted up over the Christian BIGOTS but no comment on the following:
Mormons “exercised” their mormon bigotry in the 2008 primary to the tune of 90+% for Romney. Real conservative ain’t they? Sure looks like Romeny passed a “religious test” for the mormons.
The lds church lobbied state representatives to pass a form of amnesty for Utah. Reals conservative ain’t they?
Well, yeah! Having sex with other men's wives, lying to your wife about it, creating a "bank" that defrauded thousands of followers, destroying a printing press because you don't believe in free speach or a free press, etc. They were "fanatics" alright.
"Quite typically, the fear of fanaticism led democrats into undemocratic extremes. Mormons were deprived of their property and the right to live and vote in a supposedly open society."
And they were busy doing the same to non-mormons. Stop with the revisionist history. Danites anyone?
"In 1846, after a decade and a half of recurring attacks in Missouri and Illinois, a body of armed citizens forced out the pitiful remains of the Mormon population in Nauvoo by training six cannons on the town. "
I'd like to ask Emma and her crew how they managed to stick around Missouri after the others got ran out.
I’m unclear on why you continue to focus just on Utah. You made a blanket statement about Mormon voters, which I assumed meant nationwide. Are you saying that in a Primary, Mormon voters tend to vote for Mormons over non-Mormons (which I agree with), but in the general they will vote anyway, even if there is not a Mormon running? If they were true “Mormon-only” voters, wouldn’t they have all written in Romney on the Presidential ticket or not voted at all?
You and most of the others who replied to my original post here misunderstood it -- or saw only half of the point. (Unfortunately, lack of comprehension on internet forums is rampant because we're communicating through a flat, one-dimensional means. It lacks all the other cues we take for granted in the three-dimensional world: body language and gestures, tone of voice, inflection, emphasis, etc.)
In my original post, I said:
Bigotry against any political candidate based on his religion has no place in our Constitutional Republic.
Now I'll break this down so it hopefully is more clear:
1. Voters are free to use whatever criteria they choose when making their decisions in the voting booth, but...
2. If a voter's SOLE -- ONLY -- criteria is a person's religion, then that's bigotry. That's true if the voter is making a choice because the candidate is a member of the voter's religion, or the candidate is a member of a different religion.
3. In earlier posts on this thread I was challenged on the notion of voting for a Muslim. ejonesie22 asked...
"So if there was a man running for office who said and agreed with every single political point you have ever stood for yet was a Muslim and firmly held to what the Koran said, his religion would play no role what so ever in your decision to support him."
MY ANSWER: The scenario makes little sense, because if a Muslim took every word in the Koran literally to the point of being an Islamofacist, s/he could not also support the principles in the United States Constitution. The two are antithetical to each other. Nevertheless, I try always to look at the totality of a candidate's record, position on issues and personal character when making my own voting decisions. Always have, always will. If an American Muslim ever rose to the point of being a serious candidate for president during my lifetime, I would have to take a very serious look at what that person stood for, but only if she was a Republican. If s/he was a Democrat, I'd dismiss the candidate immediately.
To close, bigotry does exist in this world. We can pretend it doesn't. We can close our eyes to it, but it does exist. The way I look at it, individuals are free to be bigoted or not. It's part of the human condition. I'm bigoted against Democrats and the political Left. :)
I oppose it only when bigotry rises beyond the individual level to impinge on our constitutional rights. Also earlier on this thread, Godzilla said that "my application of the 'religious test' is flawed." He/she missed the point as well. There are two aspects of the Constitution -- the strictly legal one and the broader principles enshrined in it. Godzilla looked only to the former, while I was considering the broader principles.
“Mormons “exercised” their mormon bigotry in the 2008 primary to the tune of 90+% for Romney. Real conservative ain’t they? Sure looks like Romeny passed a “religious test” for the mormons.”
Do you know what % of LDS voted for Reid vs. Angle or any LDS dem against a non-LDS republican? I looked specifically for the angle-reid election and all I could find was speculation before the election about what would happen, not actual breakdown of who the LDS voted for, but my search mastery is pretty lame at times.
Freegards
Brilliant! Thanks!
I can sympathize with your “concerns” about having a puppet master from Salt Lake pulling Romney’s strings. There are lots of puppet masters pulling the strings of politicians, most of them equally as dangerous as Mormonism, if not more so, and many of them are principalities and powers beyond degenerate humans. Do you think Obama is a free agent? Likewise, any progressive Republican is a puppet, and the puppet masters I see tugging Romney’s strings are already well on their way to rebuilding the dominion of Babylon. I don’t see the cult of Mormonism playing much of a part in that scheme.
Shall I recount for you the MANY FReepers who have said they will vote for almost anybody vs. Obama? Isn't that a similar "general" statement re: FReepers?
There were some Lds voters who didn't vote for the McCain-Palin ticket, right? There will be some FREEPERS who won't vote for Romney if he is the nominee, right? Where's the lack of a parallel?
I’m unclear on why you continue to focus just on Utah
It's the best example we have, being 60% Lds. But there's four other Western states with significant Lds populations: Wyoming, Idaho, Nevada, AZ. (And CO also has a fairly high total).
* Wyoming & Nevada both went caucus style. Who did they select? (Romney) [Nevada is 8% Lds & I would say at least 1 out of 6 or 1 out of 7 GOP voters in Nevada is Lds]
* Colorado also has a significant Mormon population due to its proximity to Utah. It too, went Romney.
* The reason why AZ (8% Lds) went McCain was because that was McCain's home state. Even then, McCain couldn't even get half of his home state because Romney got 35% of the AZ vote as again I believe Lds voters were probably 1 in 6 of the GOP total. Also, AZ was the one state that I saw FREEPERS have specific exit poll data in '08 showing that 95% of AZ Mormons voted for Romney.
* Idaho also went McCain, but that was because Romney by then had dropped out.
Do you know the break down of the LDS vote in the Reid vs Angle election in Nevada? Or any LDS dem when they run against a nonLDS republican?
Freegards
Also earlier on this thread, Godzilla said that "my application of the 'religious test' is flawed." He/she missed the point as well. There are two aspects of the Constitution -- the strictly legal one and the broader principles enshrined in it. Godzilla looked only to the former, while I was considering the broader principles.
Unless you can come up with a law, court decision or the like that forbids individuals evaluating a candidate's religion as a component of their qualification for office, then you are just blowing smoke. It further displays a gross ignorance of the constitution wolfie. Sounds more like a liberal interpretation of the constitution than what its intended use was for. It DEALS with LEGAL points - the LAW wolfie, that was it's intent. To force people to ignore religion for their own evaluation of a candidate as you are interpreting it to mean (your "broader principles") is to place thought control on an individual's freedom. Gov't tells you what to think and how to think. Very liberal thinking to me wolfie.
How we make our choices are our RIGHT, and only smearologists are the ones running around calling others bigots wolfie.
BTW, since mutt's supporters are using his mormonism as a QUALIFICATION lately - then it is no longer bigotry for others to look at that religion as a criteria for supporting mitt.
Your "broader principles" are liberalism wolfie. The constitution is not some changable document you can wave around to your whim.
"Danger" has a sliding scale according to distinct spheres. Certainly, the political arena is capable of much danger from a physical, economic, warfare (foreign policy), freedom/oppression/persecution/bondage and spiritual perspective.
I think a worthy question in all this is: "Which entities? Which regimes in the world? Which U.S. administrations and organizational operations are ones which open the door wide open to hell?" Well, suggestions offered up on that would be a debateable topic with difficult tangible proofs to claim. Certainly, I think the cults qualify among many other sources.
In terms of spiritual bondage -- and what legalism does -- the Mormon door to hell is pretty wide open. I'd say Jesus made it a high priority to engage spiritual legalism (instead of simply taking on the Caesars of the world), wouldn't you?
Examples:
* Matt. 16:12: ...guard against the yeast...against the TEACHING of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
* Luke 11:52: ... you have taken away the key to knowledge.
* John 8:44,47: You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies…The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
* Matthew 23:2-4, 13: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them...“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."
Btw, I wonder if you'll seek to rebuke Jesus' half-brother, Jude, when you get to heaven for using the word "fear" in this verse(?)...in light of your earlier statement: 22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. (Jude 22-23)
Do you think Obama is a free agent? Likewise, any progressive Republican is a puppet, and the puppet masters I see tugging Romney’s strings are already well on their way to rebuilding the dominion of Babylon. I don’t see the cult of Mormonism playing much of a part in that scheme.
No. Obama's not a "free agent" -- and that goes for more than just political & party handlers. The apostle John, in John 5, said "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
You know, you'd rarely find me commenting on "end times" stuff on FR (or elsewhere). And on any of these threads I've yet to connect the anti-christ to Mormonism -- unlike Mormon leaders thru the years who've endlessly connected the Christian church to "Babylon." I don't who the anti-christ is or will be; I don't know what kind of religious connections -- and possibly political ones, too -- he will have. But the apostle Paul not only describes a religious tie to the anti-christ, but enough power for him to be able to seem to wield it beyond that:
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. (2 Thess. 2:3-10)
Do Mormons have temples? (Yup)
Do Mormons exalt themselves as gods? (Yup)
Since the apostle John talked about "anti-christs" in the plural (1 John 2:18-19...see below)
...it seems that when it comes to opposing Christ,
...a given cult wouldn't even need to be directly tied into the source of THE anti-christ.
What do I mean? As far as I'm concerned, temple Mormons [NOT all Mormons] already resemble him based upon exalting themselves as gods!
1 John 2:18-19: 18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
[Sounds to me that John was saying many left the Christian faith by opposing the true Christ...and as the apostle Paul said, "many live as enemies of the cross of Christ" (Phil 3:18)...Certainly Mormons, who yank weak Christians out of their faith by the thousands worldwide, generally eschew the cross and its church leadership has treated it as a pagan symbol.]
My whole point in going this direction was simply this: You seem to suggest that we shouldn't be concerned, worried or have any fears that a religious source is going to become a "puppet-master" with political reaches. I'd say that while we need to be cautious in not giving the enemies of our souls more of an overreach than what he has or will have, that long-term, your assurances seem to run counter to 2 Thess. 2. Whatever the scheme source of THE anti-christ to be, he's actually going to have some religious tie-in. That tells me that people of the earth need to be more vigilant whenever an "I am a god-in-embryo" power figure comes forth; not less.
Allow me to correct myself and make my case even stronger: "An estimated 7.5 percent of Nevada residents share Romney’s Mormon faith, and exit polls showed Mormons accounted for one in four caucus voters in 2008."
Source: Nevada could be daunting test for Romney (Boston Globe, Feb. 13, 2011)
So, instead of Mormon voters who launched Romney in Nevada in '08 being 1 in 6 or 7; it 'twas 1 in 4!
Per the Mormon Church, Mormons make up about 7.5% of Nevada's population. But according to the entrance polls so far, a whopping 25% of those who participated in the state's GOP caucuses are Mormons. And 94% of those people went with Romney.
Source: Nevada Mormons turn out for Romney [Mark Murray, MSNBC, Jan. 19, 2008]
So there ya go:
* 94% of Mormons in Utah voted for Romney.
* 94% of Mormon caucus voters in Nevada voted for Romney.
If Mormon voters are so conservative, why were they voting 94-6% for such a waffling RINO liberal?
And why did they vote for Romney so en masse?
Salt Lake Tribune, Feb. 7, 2008: Exit poll data from Tuesday's primary elections showed Utah Republican voters cared more about presidential candidates' personal qualities than their positions on issues, the opposite of the national trend in Super Tuesday voting. Source headline: "Romney's exit disappoints strong Utah following"
Yeah, well, "personal qualities" was Mormon voter exit "talk" to convey, "He's a fellow Mormon."
And if Wolfstar and you have teamed up to play the "bigot" blame game because some voters use religion as the launching pad for their vote, ya better get busy in your finger-pointing!
Because Western states' Mormon voters have done more to push identity politics to degrees seen rarely elsewhere.
Just imagine the media hue & cry & the FREEPER hue & cry (at least among non-Evangelical FREEPERS) had a Southern Evangelical-oriented state voted 94-6% in the '08 primaries for Huckabee!
Evangelical voters, had they done that in a Southern state, would have been castigated and excoriated by many. (Perhaps both of you?)
But when the Mormon voters do that, the bigotry patrol gives them a free pass. Religious identity politics can run amok by Mormons.
Why the rampant hypocrisy, Magritte and Wolfstar?
I've never seen anything specific on that.
I know Reid had Mormon support in Nevada; the question was: How deep was it?
The demographic that made a huge difference in the 2010 Nevada race was the Hispanic vote. Hispanics were 18% of Nevada -- 2.5 times bigger than Mormons there -- and they voted for Reid by a whopping 90-8%.
Therefore it is NOT 'bigotry' if based on FACTS.
And this does NOT apply as well to a MORMON???
...if a MORMON took every word in the Book of MORMON, the Doctrines&Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price and ALL the sermons ever preached by Brigham Young literally to the point of being a Temple Worthy MORMON, s/he could not also support the principles in the United States Constitution.
I googled and googled, everything is from before the dang election, and just speculation as to what was going to happen via Reid and LDS(most of it seems to speculate he was going to lose the LDS vote, while he had support from some older LDS). It’s ridiculous. I can’t find one stupid follow up story that says what happened, exept some dumb blurb from the huffingglue post saying Reid had a lot of registered republicans vote for him, with no data to back it up. Looking at the hubbub about the issue before the election, you would think that it would be easy to find.
Of course it could just be my awesome internet search skills too, but good grief.
Freegards
I did find one thing that said LDS made up 25% of the people who voted in the republican caucus, even though they are only 7-9% of the state’s population. I wonder what % of voters are LDS in the general elections.
Freegards
“You seem to suggest that we shouldn’t be concerned, worried or have any fears that a religious source is going to become a “puppet-master” with political reaches.”
Nope, that’s not what I am trying to say. What I am trying to say is that there are a lot of powers pulling the strings of our politicians, and the ones I see pulling Romney’s strings aren’t concerned with Mormon aspirations. Satan has a lot of games going on besides the cults. It would be foolish and unscriptural of me to tell you not to be concerned about the cults, or to suggest you don’t offer a defense of the gospel. ...I think Romney’s puppet masters come from a different direction. No, you shouldn’t have fears or be worried. ...Worry is sin. All things work together for the good for those who love the Lord.
I’m not suggesting you don’t have concerns about Romney’s Mormon affiliations any more than I would tell you not to have concerns about someone’s Masonic affiliations or Islamic affiliations, add whatever you want in the sequence. It’s all legitimate debate in the world of spiritual warfare and politics. I am concerned about Christians who wants to be a political leaders, not because I fear them being influenced by Christianity, but because I wonder about the influences driving them into politics.
I understand that Jesus showed little or no concern for the political powers of His time. His concern was the Kingdom of Heaven, and it still is. Caesar was nothing compared to Him. I also understand that Mormonism is a pagan doctrine pretending to be Christian, and Christians have a duty to expose it. ...Getting back to those powers and principalities though, in regards to Romney, and other presidential contenders, I think the greater danger lies in a different direction.
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