Mitt Romney's Mormonism: A TNR online debate

The New Republic ^ | January 3-5, 2007 | Richard Lyman Bushman and Damon Linker

[Wolfstar]

I have no knowledge Mormonism or its tenets. However, if it is as you say, then of course it applies.

[Wolfstar]

I have no knowledge Mormonism or its tenets. However, if it is as you say, then of course it applies.

[Wolfstar]

Sorry, Godzilla, my apologies. Not pinging you was an oversight on my part.

[greyfoxx39]

"I don't believe in any organized religion. The person who started this thread wanted a debate. This is my contribution to the debate."

Playing the bigot card does nothing to add to the debate...it just shows that one presumes to be superior to everyone who takes part IN the debate. A very liberal tactic.

[Elsie]

However, if it is as you say, then of course it pplies.If you read REAL close, you'll see that I am not 'saying' anything.

I do post things that MORMONism has produced.

Should we believe IT's writings or not?

[restornu]

Bro Richard this Colofo... is very confused person in their religion history she is totally ignorant according to her supposition.

the very same thing was accurse of baby Jesus when King Herod order that all baby boys under two were to be killed for fear baby Jesus would grow up and be King.

Political Neutrality

The Church’s mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, not to elect politicians. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is neutral in matters of party politics. This applies in all of the many nations in which it is established.

The Church does not:
•Endorse, promote or oppose political parties, candidates or platforms.
•Allow its church buildings, membership lists or other resources to be used for partisan political purposes.
•Attempt to direct its members as to which candidate or party they should give their votes to. This policy applies whether or not a candidate for office is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
•Attempt to direct or dictate to a government leader.

The Church does:
•Encourage its members to play a role as responsible citizens in their communities, including becoming informed about issues and voting in elections.

•Expect its members to engage in the political process in an informed and civil manner, respecting the fact that members of the Church come from a variety of backgrounds and experiences and may have differences of opinion in partisan political matters.
•Request candidates for office not to imply that their candidacy or platforms are endorsed by the Church.
•Reserve the right as an institution to address, in a nonpartisan way, issues that it believes have significant community or moral consequences or that directly affect the interests of the Church.

In the United States, where nearly half of the world’s Latter-day Saints live, it is customary for the Church at each national election to issue a letter to be read to all congregations encouraging its members to vote, but emphasizing the Church’s neutrality in partisan political matters.

Relationships With Government

Elected officials who are Latter-day Saints make their own decisions and may not necessarily be in agreement with one another or even with a publicly stated Church position. While the Church may communicate its views to them, as it may to any other elected official, it recognizes that these officials still must make their own choices based on their best judgment and with consideration of the constituencies whom they were elected to represent.

Modern scriptural references to the role of government: Doctrine and Covenants, Section 134

Sign #3 Blessing

[greyfoxx39]

The Church does not:
•Attempt to direct its members as to which candidate or party they should give their votes to. This policy applies whether or not a candidate for office is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

•Attempt to direct or dictate to a government leader.

The "church" keeps hands off directly, but the members know exactly what to do to "build up Zion" because they take an oath in the temple to do so...electing mormon politicians certainly fall under that "covenant".

The Law of Consecration: You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.

Colo isn't the least bit "confused".

Those of us who understand the underhanded ways of mormonism aren't going to let false statements such as the one you posted go unanswered. We also have grave doubts that a mormon POTUS would not choose the course of "building up Zion (the mormon church) over the needs of the entire country.

[restornu]

Zion is for the righteious and the righteou has ears to hear!

Tha gathering is on going and the message is for all who can hear and receive.....

LDS Church Leaders preparing us for the 2nd Coming of Christ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=iw&v=IqaesQ2EE8w

Come To Zion While Babylon Falls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R9x_um9Cak

[Colofornian]

The Church does not: •Endorse, promote or oppose political parties, candidates or platforms. •Allow its church buildings, membership lists or other resources to be used for partisan political purposes.

Tell us, Restornu: Why did the head of Lds Church's Public Affairs, Michael Otterson, write an open letter in the past week to Warren Cole Smith -- seemingly to defend both Romney & Huntsman -- if the Lds church doesn't wriggle into political candidancies?

Smith had raised concerns about Romney & Huntsman...you can see these here:
* Author: LDS is 'dangerous religion' [Romney article]
* A Vote for Romney Is a Vote for the LDS Church: One evangelical explains why he cannot support Mitt
* Smith's follow-up interview: A President's Faith Matters: An Interview with Warren Cole Smith

So Otterson came out to respond to Smith -- seemingly on behalf of Romney & Huntsman.

Btw, Restornu...who is "Colofo"...me?

Then ya should have pinged me ya gossipy-behind-people's back lady

[Colofornian]

Zion is for the righteious...

Whereas the true Jesus (not the Mormon jesus) is for sinners. He said: "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Matt. 9:13)

Meanwhile, you self-righteous legalists can continue to have your supposed "holy" huddle general conferences twice-a-year.

[Colofornian]

Tha gathering is on going and the message is for all who can hear and receive.....LDS Church Leaders preparing us for the 2nd Coming of Christ

In the meanwhile, Resty, exactly what are those restless husbands (& spouses generally) doing up there while their faithful spouses patiently wait for their turn to join them?

Seems to me that the ones who were Mormon First Presidents --like "apostle" Heber C. Kimball and "prophet" Brigham Young -- ought to know, right?

What did they have to say?

If you go to pp. 231-234 of the Tanners' online book, The Changing World of Mormonism, you will find these excerpts:

Lds First President Heber C Kimball prophesied that he would have thousands of wives (Tanners, p. 234):

Supposing that I have a wife or a dozen of them, and she should say, "You cannot be exalted without me," and suppose they all should say so, what of that? ... Suppose that I lose the whole of them before I go into the spirit world, but that I have been a good, faithful man ... do you think I will be destitute there. No, the Lord says there are more there than there are here ... there are millions of them, ... we will go to brother Joseph and say, "Here we are brother Joseph; we are here ourselves are we not, with none of the property we possessed in our probationary state, not even the rings on our fingers?" He will say to us, "Come along, my boys, we will give you a good suit of clothes. Where are your wives?" "They are back yonder; they would not follow us." "Never mind," says Joseph, "Here are thousands, have all you want" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 209).

...Brigham Young boasted of his ability to obtain many wives: "Brother Cannon remarked that people wondered how many wives and children I had. He may inform them, that I shall have wives and children by the million, and glory, and riches and power and dominion, and kingdom after kingdom, and reign triumphantly" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 178, as cited by the Tanners, p. 233).

Seems to me, Resty, that there's all kinds of Mormon husbands of Lds widows left down here who might be having all kinds of "new bride fun" up yonder, eh?

[Colofornian]

LDS Church Leaders preparing us for the 2nd Coming of Christ

In the meanwhile...

...there's all the posthumous new bride sealing shenanigans that might be going on with all those deceased husbands of Mormon women...with their earth-based wives unaware of all that, eh?

Secondary source for citations below: The Changing World of Mormonism

Posthumous "marriages" to Brigham Young (p. 233):

The Mormon writer John J. Stewart lists the names of fifty-three women who were sealed to Brigham Young, and then he adds: "There were perhaps one or two others, plus the some 150 women whom he had sealed to him; also a few women who were sealed to him after his death" (Brigham Young and His Wives, p. 96). (p. 231 of Tanners' book)

Posthumous "marriages" to Joseph Smith (Tanners, p. 232):

At the end of his paper Mr. Ivins remarked: "In addition to these dead women, Joseph Smith was sealed to at least 229 others, up to March 18, 1881. (Additional note: Sealed to 246 Dead Women.)" (Joseph Smith and Polygamy p. 47). In the Preface to the second edition of her book No Man Knows My History, Fawn Brodie states: "...over two hundred women, apparently at their own request, were sealed as wives to Joseph Smith after his death in special temple ceremonies. Moreover, a great many distinguished women in history, including several Catholic saints, were also sealed to Joseph Smith in Utah. I saw these astonishing lists in the Latter-day Saint Genealogical Archives in Salt Lake City in 1944." The Apostle John A. Widtsoe admitted that women were sealed to Joseph Smith after his death and without his approval: "After the death of the Prophet, women applied for the privilege of being sealed to him for eternity.... To these requests, assent was often given....Women no longer living, whether in Joseph's day or later, have also been sealed to the Prophet for eternity" (Evidences and Reconciliations, Single Volume Edition, 1960, pp. 342-43).

300 women were sealed for eternity to the Lds "apostle" Pratt brothers (from whom Mitt Romney is descended) (Tanners, p. 234):

According to Stanley S. Ivins, the Endowment House Records reveal that on November 22, 1870, Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt had himself sealed to 101 dead women. On November 29, 1870, he was sealed to 109 dead women. The same day (November 29, 1870) 91 dead women were sealed to his brother, Parley P. Pratt, who had died in 1857.

(There must have been a doorbuster Christmas "sale" going on re: available women that Thanksgiving week in 1870!)

Posthumous "marriages" to the Lds "prophet" Wilford Woodruff, the guy that supposedly cracked down on plural marriages! (Tanners, p. 234)

Mr. Ivins found that the St. George Temple records show that Wilford Woodruff—who later became the fourth president of the church—was sealed to 189 dead women in a period of slightly over two years (January 29, 1879 to March 14, 1881).

Who might hold the record? (p. 234)

Moses Franklin Farnsworth was sealed to 345 dead women in a two-year period. At one time we thought that Mr. Farnsworth held the record for the largest number of dead women sealed to him. New evidence, however, has forced us to revise that conclusion. On April 5, 1894, the Apostle Abraham Cannon recorded the following in his diary: THURSDAY, APRIL 5th, 1894.... I met with the Quorum and Presidency in the temple.... President Woodruff then spoke ... "In searching out my genealogy I found about four hundred of my femal[e] kindred who were never married. I asked Pres. Young what I should do with them. He said for me to have them sealed to me unless there were more that [than?] 999 of them.

[greyfoxx39]

More total BS....What an unattractive picture these videos paint of mormons, sitting in judgment on the world, claiming to be the only "righteous" inhabitants to be chosen.

Holier-than-thou, arrogant cultists shaking fingers and scolding Christians from their imagined high perch.

"Tha gathering is on going and the message is for all who can hear and receive"

How sad, that they are deafened by the fictious words of a demon-inspired charlatan!

Has anyone else noticed the portrait of arrogance painted by a golden idol on the top of every built-higher-than-neighboring-churches mormon temple, the imaginary angel Moroni, elevated to god-like stature?

The Cross of Jesus isn't worthy for that kind of honor to them. Nor is the Jesus who died for sinners, whose grace is not for sale for money, good works, or imaginary "covenants" claimed to bind God to the laws of men.

The "gathering" is going on is correct. The harvest will disappoint heretics.

[SZonian]

Tell us Resty, what is your position on illegal immigration and illegal aliens remaining in this country supported by the taxpayers and who refuse to assimilate into American society?

"Elected officials who are Latter-day Saints make their own decisions and may not necessarily be in agreement with one another or even with a publicly stated Church position. While the Church may communicate its views to them, as it may to any other elected official, it recognizes that these officials still must make their own choices based on their best judgment and with consideration of the constituencies whom they were elected to represent."

Hmmmm, maybe the church's "communications" with lds representatives should be viewed as a conflict of interest because the representatives aren't capable of "making their own choices based on their best judgement and with consideration of the their constituencies"?

That’s why the mormon church recently lobbied the state legislature to pass a version of amnesty for illegals in Utah? Because they’re so “conservative”?

Let’s see how the mormons vote now that their church leadership has helped to sell out the state and the members of the church.

Utah on immigration: We aren't Arizona

Utah-Amnesty for illegal immigrants

Done with the direct help, lobbying, involvement and “encouragement” of the mormon church “leadership”.

They’ve made their position known quite clearly; “One thing is clear: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has abandoned its claims to neutrality on these bills.”

LDS Church takes public stance on immigration legislation

The mormon church hierarchy has sold out the people of Utah.

[greyfoxx39]

This is a great explanation for those who think mormonism is "just another Christian religion".

Why Mormonism is contrary to Biblical Christianity.

[CommerceComet]

No point in obsessing over his religion when the liberalism is more than enough.

True for conservatives, but what about RINOs for whom his liberalism isn't that offensive? It is better to have them realize now what a burden his Mormonism might be in the general election than after he has already secured the nomination. If Romney is the nominee, you know that the MSM will make Mormons look like the biggest bunch of oddballs on earth (and their religion provides lots of ammunition).