Posted on 06/22/2011 3:56:20 AM PDT by Cronos
Post our death, we who are saved are not 'punished' anymore - the "final sanctification"/"purgatory" is not "punishment", but we who are saved are prepared, by the blood of the lamb, in the last "stage" of the sanctification process for entry into heaven
this is not a place, not a period of time as it is outside this space-time concept of ours. It is the final "stage" of the sanctification process and it is not punishment either.
Unfortunately we get stuck in words, but the meaning is the same: final sanctification or purgatory, but are not "punishments", it is for those already saved and it is done by the grace of God, the sacrifice of Christ that forgave all sins and sanctifies us by the power of the Holy Spirit through the blood of the lamb
Mr Rogers, I value your opinion highly. Please could you peruse this comments I made in response to your question? Does this answer them? Thank you in advance
Purgatory- In a nutshell is the Trip to Heaven. A process.
Also let’s not forget the prayers for the reason of this thread. Just terrible.
Exactly. Prayers for this pastor — whether he was murdered or it was suicide, prayers for his eternal soul
Check this out for your discernment- http://www.reviewatlas.com/Featured/x438672007/-Miracles-are-happening
(Free Republic needs a ‘Like’ button.)
My boy! You have the makings of a fine theologian! (for all values of 'fine' such that 'fine' means 'agrees with me.')
I think a couple of years back you and I explored the evident incoherence of Catholics praying to ease the burden of those in Purgatory. But in any event, though our (that is, Catholic) language about Purgatory is too often retributive in character, or too much like the language of book-keeping, my impression remains that it is at least as much a matter of healing and training (= discipline) as anything else.
I suggest, just for speculation, that we humans in our fractured views, separate retribution and restoration (and so on.) But I think most of us would get that to do justice -- especially too someone we have abused, though it is sometimes painful, is better for us, more in line with what it is to be human, than not to do so.
We rightly intuit that a just punishment ought to be beneficial to the person being punished, if he is still capable of receiving any benefit.
I think, maybe, sorta.
In any event, if you have not done so, you must read Dante's Purgatorio.
I apologize for not responding earlier, but it has been a busy week, and serious questions deserve at least some effort in the response.
“Post our death, we who are saved are not ‘punished’ anymore - the “final sanctification”/”purgatory” is not “punishment”, but we who are saved are prepared, by the blood of the lamb, in the last “stage” of the sanctification process for entry into heaven
this is not a place, not a period of time as it is outside this space-time concept of ours. It is the final “stage” of the sanctification process and it is not punishment either.”
First, let me explain how I and most Baptists I know understand sanctification. Sanctification means “to make holy; set apart as sacred; consecrate” in the dictionary, and that pretty well matches my understanding.
Justification is what happens when our sins are forgiven. It goes beyond just forgiveness for sins done to date, because it makes us a child of the King. We are born again, a new creation, set apart to live for Him. “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
As Peter put it, “According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”
Justification starts the process. Count me in with those who believe ALL our sins are forgiven, unless we knowingly reject Jesus as Lord later on. There are many Baptists who believe that someone who does that was never a Christian to begin with, but I think Hebrews is clear enough:
“12Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end....
...3And this we will do if God permits. 4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.”
Salvation and being saved refers to both justification and sanctification, because we can be saved from the penalty of our sin, saved from sin, and saved from the evil world around us.
Sanctification involves separation. It means God sets us apart, and we live apart, as strangers passing thru the world. We are called to be separate (holy).
So, does sanctification continue after death? At that point, we are separate from our fleshly bodies, and will be taken to God, separating us from the world. What other separation is there?
There are two main passages that speak of what happens when we die.
“42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Mystery and Victory
50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” - 1 Cor 15 (ESV)
“13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.” - 1 Thess 4 (ESV)
When we die, if we are ‘asleep’, then we are...well, asleep. No one would sleep thru purgatory, and one cannot sleep thru being sanctified. At the coming of Jesus, what will happen?
“We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”
Changed, and “in the twinkling of an eye”. The dead will be raised with imperishable bodies, and those living will be changed into imperishable bodies as well, instantly.
“And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.”
First the dead in Christ, then those still living, and we “will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.”
There will be nothing left for us to be separated from. Our perishable bodies will be replaced in the twinkling of an eye, and we will be always with the Lord.
As Paul writes in Romans 8, “19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.”
Even creation will be made new on that day.
There is no temporal punishment (or sanctification) to continue our preparation for heaven. The final sanctification occurs in the twinkling of an eye, and afterward we shall be together with God forever.
It doesn’t get any better than that! Thus the Good News of Jesus Christ - God is eager to forgive us, and promises to change us, and what is death to those who sleep, and who will precede those still alive by a nanosecond in permanent union with God?
My dear brother: (Do I sound like Alamo-girl? Maybe that’s not such a bad thing.)
In brief:
EXCELLENT exegesis and interpretation on “in a twinkling of an eye.” Provocative yet helpful.
I think we can have a dialog here. To me what amazed me about Dante’s Purgatorio was the joyfulness. This is not jail.
He has the proud walk around in gorgeous cloaks — which are lined with lead. Looks beautiful; IS almost crushing. It’s an exercise in learning what a PITA vanity is. It’s THERAPY!
I surprised my pastor by saying I was looking forward to Purgatory. (He rightly pointed out that if we appeal constantly for grace the ‘work’ of purgatory can be done before we die.)
But the joy of knowing that I AM saved would, I think, sustain me through the pain (if any) of working my will around to where it TRULY loved what it now professes to love.
It begins to sound like our disagreement is in what amounts to minor details.
Thank you for sharing your testimony and insights, dear brother in Christ!
“It begins to sound like our disagreement is in what amounts to minor details.”
I think not. I think it is a profound disagreement.
If we die in Christ, we ‘sleep’. When we wake, it will be his second coming, and we will meet him in the air and be always with him.
“16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.”
There is no hint of purgatory in Paul’s description.
“50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
Some, and I don’t know what to think on this, argue that it is our bodies that rest ‘in sleep’, but our souls immediately go to be with Christ. They say passages such as Philippians 1 (”21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.”), Acts 7 (”59And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”) and Luke 23 (”42And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”) show that our souls are united with Christ immediately at death.
I don’t know. It seems a thin nail on which to hang much weight.
But if that is a thin nail, purgatory isn’t present at all. There is no indication that at death, we will need further purification or to separate us further...from what?
“The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).
The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.”
To repeat for contrast:
“The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven...”
Paul: “16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.”
Catholic: “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030)
Hebrews: “For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified...”I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
“perfected for all time” vs “still imperfectly purified”
In this life, in our earthly bodies and surrounded by a fallen world, we are being sanctified - separated, made holy - but after death, we lose our fleshly bodies and will no longer be surrounded by a fallen world.
I believe most of you know I believe we are saved by knowing God, not by knowing about theology. I think we also understand the differences that arise when one side (Baptists) believe the whole counsel of God is found in scripture, vs those (Catholics) who believe that is only part of God’s revelation.
I think scripture is clear: we show we know God by obeying Him, not by reciting facts about Him. Still, a part of knowing God, IMHO, is understanding how eager he is to forgive us.
A few weeks ago, I taught a youth Sunday School class on Mark 2:
“4And when they could not get near him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him, and when they had made an opening, they let down the bed on which the paralytic lay. 5And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Some think he was laying a trap for the scribes:
“Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7”Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
But I disagree. I think it is more like with the Prodigal Son: “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.”
I think Jesus (God), seeing their faith, having already seen the roof disassembled above him, just couldn’t wait any longer. “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Actually, I suspect it should read, “Son, your sins are forgiven!!!!!”
With our sins forgiven, and with separation from the flesh and world complete, then truly “in the twinkling of an eye...we shall be changed” and “so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.”
Crazy day today.
First nasty (not really) reply: Shaddup and read Dante. The (Divine) Comedy is the best poem since the Bible.
Second reply: Some cat’lick thinkers (NOT a contradiction in terms) are careful to say that purgation COULD be instantaneous.
Project for self: study up on “perfect” in Hebrews. To me the “time” or “duration” question is not as interesting as the “perfect” question. Maybe tonight I will have something useful to say.
Unfortunately many of my books are in boxes. Bleah.
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