Posted on 07/03/2011 1:29:08 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
CASTELLAMMARE DI STABIA, Italy — Maria Esposito was ready to give up. Wasted away at 42 kilos (92 pounds), she couldn’t bear another dose of chemotherapy to fight the Stage IV Burkitt’s lymphoma that had invaded her body while she was pregnant with her second child.
But as she and her family had done since she was diagnosed with the rare and aggressive form of cancer in July 2005, Esposito prayed to the man who had appeared to her husband in a dream as the only person who could save her: Pope Pius XII.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
ping
On the one hand, it’s possible this will be ascribed to natural causes, which is why they hold the medical review. On the other hand, people who don’t believe in miracles, or in the intercession of the saints, will have “doubts” no matter what occurs.
I wasn’t aware of the case being made for the Holy Father, but can see why. And the review is always part of the process, so I don’t have any problem with that. I admit that the Washington Post bugged me a bit with the attitude sprinkled within the article, but on the other hand, that’s them. ;)
I think she was cured by the “tooth fairy”...who can prove me wrong? Not pontificate....real proof..
Yes, exactly.
First you need to prove it wasn’t Pope Pius XII, because his spirit was prayed to.
Once you achieve that then tell us about your Tooth Fairy.
Article XVII.a of the "Document Prohibiting Intervention of Subtheistic Entities Upon the Entreaty of Prayers of Omnipotence (whether by Self or Agents)" clearly restricts areas of operations by such entities as fairies or bunnies (Nymphae Dentis or Cuniculi Paschae) to the areas for which they are popularly or traditionally recognized, and in which operations are achieved through their own abilities, and not through direct Divine intervention (as opposed to the regular operations of Divine Providential Augmentation as supports all operations in Nature), that their actions may not exhibit qualities which would cause them to be attributed to the proper operations as limited to God Himself (e.g., revivification, healing, creation ex nihilo), causing a fatal misapprehension and a confusion between the Creator and the creature.
The document does not, of course, forbid intervention of subtheistic supernaturals in areas of healing or otherwise miraculous events (which power they do not have anyway and cannot exhibit unless God, by direct fiat, grants it through them as His agents), but rather forbids finite intelligences (human or otherwise) from attributing such actions to superhuman (but subDivine) creatures themselves which are in fact the proper operations of the Omnipotence.
There is, of course, as far as I know, no such document as described above (it's entirely possible that St. Thomas Aquinas may have addressed a similar matter in his immense Summa, which I hope to finish reading before I die, as afterwards I shall undoubtedly be otherwise occupied), but: Issue a silly and frivolous challenge, get a silly, frivolous and verbose reply.
I myself would side with the above poster who noted that Pius (a real person whose existence is undoubted) was approached for prayers to God for His intervention, and that such intervention was apparently achieved, with the simplest explanation being that the prayers of Pius "worked," with no need to invoke tooth fairies, Easter Bunnies, or six-foot-tall invisible rabbits named Harvey (Santa Claus, AKA St. Nicholas of Myra, is another matter, he being recognized as a legitimate saint, whose prayers to God may be considered as efficacious).
One might, of course, attribute all this to "coincidence," a word which actually explains nothing but simply gainsays other explanations inconvenient to the arguer--but, as a chain of entreaty has been offered, and the thing asked for granted, the burden of proof to the contrary rests, I believe, with you.
I could, of course, be wrong. It has been a long time since I studied formal logic.
So, if I understand correctly, you don’t need to invoke tooth fairies, Easter Bunnies, or six-foot-tall invisible rabbits named Harvey - you have dead popes.
Will
Please pray that I can be healed from my tongue being planted firmly in my cheek.
Well, I sure wouldn't invoke dead popes indiscriminately--you don't want some of those guys to know your name. Being a pope is no necessary guarantee of high personal character any more than being a president is any guarantee of his knowing his @nus from an excavation.
My point was (a) we know there were popes, (b) we know they're dead, and (c) there is a long-standing tradition in the Church of asking prayers of the holy dead, just as you would ask your neighbor or friend to pray for you, as well as a number of stories of the efficacy of such prayers. This was tried when a woman asked for the intercession of Pope Pius. The prayer which Pius (supposedly) made to God was (apparently) granted. So there is no need to complicate the matter by introducing exotic explanations involving fanciful and pop-cultural para- or supernatural entities in whom no one seriously believes, or (for that matter) previously undetected etheric emanations from your Lionel electric train set (wish I still had mine!) to effect the cure, unless there is some a priori reason that you want or need to refuse the offered explanation--meaning, as I had written, that the burden of proof is upon the objector.
So perhaps you didn't understand me correctly.
Please pray that I can be healed from my tongue being planted firmly in my cheek.
No need to pray for this cure when all that is needed to correct the problem is a pair of vise-grip pliers and a strong stomach! Or (less messily) a mind willing to entertain realities beyond those limited to your personal experience and the unreflective prejudices that we all pick up, like lint, throughout our lives and come to accept as bedrock verities.
RE: Praying ot the dead, you wrote:
“(E)ntertain realities beyond those limited to your personal experience and the unreflective prejudices that we all pick up, like lint, throughout our lives and come to accept as bedrock verities.”
Let’s give this a try.
Dear Dead Pope Peter:
I beg your indulgence (just a little pope humor to start things off).
Sorry to bother you. There are some Christians down here that say I should pray to dead people to intercede to Jesus for me. Sort of an intercessor to the intercessor. Anyway, you’re high up on the list being the first pope and all. Did you know you were a pope? I read your books and it doesn’t look like it.
Here’s what happened. Remember when you told Jesus he was the Christ the Son of the Living God. Yeah I thought you would. Well, when he said ‘upon this rock I will build my church these folks got the idea that Jesus meant you instead of him being the Christ and all.
Soooo, long story short- you became the Rock on which the church was built and the gates of Hell can not prevail against it because of you.
No. Really.
Anyway, I’m new to this praying to dead folks and all, having always come into the throne room of grace with boldness because I have been adopted as a son of God and heir of God and a joint heir with Christ. Oops. My bad.
Couple of questions if I could be as bold with you as Christ has let me be with him. (And I’m not so sure I can without really offending these folks down here). First, in 1 Peter 2, you said:
“As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”[b]
7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”[c]
8 and,
“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[d]
They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. “
That looks a lot to me like you are saying that Christ is the cornerstone on which the church is built. As the first pope, and the rock on which the church is built, I would have expected you to know better.
On top of that, Papa Rock, if I read the next two verses, “9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.”
It looks here like you are calling God’s elect (1 Peter 1:1) priests. Were you not aware of the distinction of priests from laity, and that I apparently need a priest between God and me?
For a Pope and the Rock upon which the church is built, your writings don’t line up with tradition and canon law very well.
Why is that, Dead Pope Pete?
If you could ask Jesus to clear up my mind on these things, I’d appreciate it. Also, please don’t rely on my free will to choose this stuff- just in case those Calvinists are right.
Also, once we get past the formalities; there are a few questions I have about the Coredemtrix. . . .
Doesn’t ring a bell? Maybe you know her better as the Queen of Heaven. . .
Well, how about Mother of God. . .
Mary?
OK, Mary.
Aside from those titles, you won’t believe what some of these folks say about her. You’ll never look at the ark of the covenant in the same way again!
Well, I know you must be busy handling the dead pope prayers and being the rock and all.
Take care, look forward to seeing you soon. Keep those gates pearly and stuff.
Will. . . of God (If Agnes can do it so can I)
PS- for the sake of clarity, please DO NOT SHARE this request with the tooth fairy, easter Bunnies or six foot tall invisible rabbits named Harvey. Actually that last one seems unnecessarily specific. Please Preimier Pope refrain from sharing this request with ANY AND ALL invisible rabbits.
Amen
PS- Don’t blame me- I’m told on the best of authority that there is a long standing tradition of this.
Papa Rock
Dead Pope Pete
You know, even if you don't accept the idea that Peter was the first of the "Popes," I'd think you might try to refer to the Apostle with a little less amused whimsy and a little more respect--he is, after all, a real person (just currently dead, not to remain so, if you believe Scripture)--I'd like to have you avoid socially awkward situations in the New Jerusalem, as this would not be the most auspicious way to begin Eternity--i.e., as a flippant wiseacre known for smarting off to his betters, believing he's safe in doing so because they can't hear him--and even if they can't, Someone Else can--specifically, the One Who named him "Kepha," the Rock. At least the level of courtesy and respect that you employ towards your own minister or even your teacher (assuming you provide these people with such courtesies) would be a refreshing change from the current tack.
there are a few questions I have about the Coredemtrix The word you want is Coredemptrix. If you want to know more about the concept, you might want to check this thing called the Internet, specifically the online Catholic Encyclopedia, or even Wikipedia. The concept is based on the words of Mary, to wit: "And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word." That is, in agreeing to become the Mother of Christ (God Incarnate--hence her title among Catholics [and other Christians, as well], "The Mother of God"--not really that much of a stretch to figure out the reason for this one), she could be called "co-redeemer" in the sense that she willingly accepted becoming the mother of our Savior. But if I understand the concept properly, she is in no sense a Redeemer to the same degree as Christ, nor can anyone be but He alone.
But I'm not going any farther into this--the information is out there if you're genuinely interested, and if you're only interested in pinching and running away with a merry giggle and laugh, I can't be bothered.
A note that may possibly be of some help in your building anything like a possible future social network: jeering at other people's firmly-held beliefs does quite the opposite of winning them to your point of view or educating them--instead, it reveals your contempt for them and their beliefs, and so great a certainty in your own rightness and righteousness that you feel they are not deserving of respectful consideration.
or six foot tall invisible rabbits named Harvey. Actually that last one seems unnecessarily specific.
This is a reference to a 1950 fantasy film (named Harvey) starring James Stewart as Elwood Dowd, an eccentric fellow who believes that he has, as a friend, a six-foot-tall invisible rabbit. His family, doubtful of this proposition, has him shut up in an insane asylum, where it begins to be clear that Harvey is not quite as imaginary as others believe him to be. The theme of the movie (so far as it can be said to have one) is that you must not be hasty in judging a Reality that is unavailable to your senses unless you know, well, just a whole lot more than you probably already know. If you haven't seen it yet, you've got a real treat ahead of you--although it turns up from time to time on TCM, I'd get to Netflix or a Blockbusters and rent the thing, pop some corn, and prepare for fun.
And my apologies if I have assumed a peremptory tone in this exchange. It is something I don't like in others, and am altogether too prone to myself, if I don't watch it. As Elwood says in Harvey (the quotation, though approximate, is fairly close), "My mother used to say to me, 'Elwood'--she called me 'Elwood'--'Elwood, in this life you must be oh-so-smart, or oh-so-nice.' Well, I've tried 'smart.' I prefer 'nice.'"
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.