Is the old Jerusalem not the new Jerusalem?

[Acrobat]

his letters were to the Church, composed of Gentiles and Hebrew believers, thus the opening ‘Grace and Peace’ incidentally. Paul at one point in Acts says to the Hebraic Jews rejecting Jesus “we are going to the Gentiles because you have rejected Christ”... He wasn’t talking about another branch of Hebrews... you really have to twist Scripture out of the writer’s intent into some contorted picture to get that Gentile doesn’t mean Gentile and Hebrew doesn’t mean Hebrew.

[patlin]

Unless one reads what Aramaic term was used for gentile, then one is clueless to what Paul was saying & he spelled it out in no uncertain terms in Romans 7 : “Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law),...”. He literally starts out that if you do not understand Covenant Law (Torah), then he is not speaking to you. Rm 7 is all about how YHVH could remarry a wife after He divorced her & after she had been defiled by another. How is it possible? Unless you know Torah, you read into Paul's words that which is not there.

[aces]

Just as possible as my theory...well said...

[Ancient Drive]

Thank you everyone for your insight. Yeah, deep in my heart I know the Israelis still have a role to play. Who are we to replace them?

[nonsporting]

Are we(Christians) the new Jewish people with a new covenant

No.

Let's see what the Bible says:

"I know thy (church at smyrna) works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." (Revelation 2:9)

"Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy (church of Philadelphia) feet, and to know that I have loved thee." (Revelation 3:9)

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28,29)

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.(Romans 4:13-18)

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-9)

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Galatians 3:7)

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.(Galatians 3:16)

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26-29)

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Si'nai, which gendereth to bondage, which is A'gar. For this A'gar is mount Si'nai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Galatians 4:22-26)

Modern day Judaism, who reject Jesus Christ, Christ called them children of the devil:

I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him. We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. (John 8:38-44)

We believers have always been the children of the promise. The Bible is clear who the true Jews are. (And maligning believers by equating them with Nazis is a lie of Satan.)

[Ancient Drive]

forgot to include the tin foil hat in the first post

[Tzfat]

maligning believers by equating them with Nazis is a lie of Satan

You are on the wrong side.

Read Luther's "Jews and Their Lies" - used by the Nazis. Then read Romans 11, Rev 14, the books of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Malachi etc., and get back to me.

[nonsporting]

You are on the wrong side. Read Luther's "Jews and Their Lies" - used by the Nazis. Then read Romans 11, Rev 14, the books of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Malachi etc., and get back to me.

I am not on Luther's side. I am on Christ's side. What I object to is to the use of a broad brush to tar Christians for the errors of the Catholic Church and its offshoots. They've been killing my brothers and sisters for many hundreds of years. Read Revelation 17 to discover who the great whore is who sits on seven hills.

Can you site which verses from Romans, Revelation, etc. to support your position (which you should state explicitely).

I've sited many verses to support who the Bible says are the true "Jews" and what Jesus considered [modern day] Judaism which rejects him.

[Tzfat]

Romans 11. All of it. “Real” Jews are who they always have been: physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The heresy you are spouting is call Supercessionism, or “Replacement Theology” - an evil and vile doctrine used to persecute Jews by “Christians” (Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc.) for 1,900 years. When Christians repudiate that evil teaching they begin to see the value of Genesis 12:3. You may not be think you on Luther’s side, but you have expressed his thoughts well. Shame.

[nonsporting]

Romans 11. All of it. “Real” Jews are who they always have been: physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

That is not what the Bible says. Let's see who the "children of the promise" are, who exactly are "Abraham's seed."

13* For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14* For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16* Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (Romans 4:13-16)

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Galatians 3:7)

26* For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27* For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28* There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29* And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26-29)

The Jews of the flesh are not the heirs according to the promise. All those who are in Christ Jesus are the heirs.

There is hope for "physical sons of Abraham", just as there is hope for all in unbelief, that they may hear the gospel and believe:

And they also, if they abide not still inbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again. (Romans 11:23)

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness of Jacob: For this is my convenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Romans 11:26,27)

Many stop here and say, "See. It says 'all Israel'." Paul in chapter 9 indicates what he means by 'all Israel':

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect, they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They, which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)

It cannot get much clearer than this. They which are the "children of the flesh" , simply by virtue of being physical descendents of Abraham, are NOT the children of God, the children of promise. "All Israel" includes all faithful sons of Abraham (who come to Jesus) as well as believing gentiles.

So, who is a "Jew"?

28* For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29* But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Romans 2:28,29)

You are calling this a heresy?