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Mormonism, Cults, and Christianity (Is Mormonism a Cult, or is it simply not Christian?)
Christian Post ^ | 10/10/2011 | Ed Stetzer

Posted on 10/10/2011 7:50:42 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

The news is abuzz with the question of Mormonism, cults, and Christianity.

A cult is often understood as a religious group with strange beliefs out of the cultural mainstream (which many today increasingly consider biblical Christianity). Since "cult" is difficult to define, scholars tend not to use it.

However, the question of what beliefs characterize Christianity is not a new debate, and is one we should not shy away from if words and definitions matter.

Many people are shocked at the idea that some pastors believe Mormons are not Christians-- "judgementalism" is decried and "intolerance" proclaimed. Yet, as that may be new news to some, the view that Mormons are not Christians is historic and very widely held view.

In 2007, LDS spokesman Michael Otterson provided a forthright article in the On Faith section of the Washington Post / Newsweek. He explains,

The question, "Are Mormons Christian?" is a good starting point for this discussion. When some conservative Protestants say Mormons aren't Christian, it is deeply offensive to Latter-day Saints. Yet when Latter-day Saints assert their Christianity, some of those same Christians bitterly resent it. Why? Because both sides are using the same terms to describe different things...

When someone says Mormons aren't Christian... he or she usually means that Mormons don't embrace the traditional interpretation of the Bible that includes the Trinity. "Our Jesus" is somehow different from "their Jesus." Further, they mean that some Mormon teachings are so far outside Christian orthodoxy of past centuries that they constitute almost a new religion.

Otterson is correct here. For evangelicals and others, "Christian" is more than a self-identified label. It is hard for people in tolerant America to hear, "I know you SAY you are a Christian, but you are not." Yet, basic to evangelicalism (and historic Protestantism) is that some people are Christians, some people are not, and not all people who think that they are Christians actually are.

"Christianity" is not based on what you say about yourself or your beliefs. "Christianity" must be connected to how your beliefs agree with the beliefs of biblical Christianity.

With Mormonism becoming a major topic of discussion, about a year ago LifeWay Research decided to ask Protestant pastors their view. According to our random sample, most pastors feel strongly Mormons are not Christians. After several reporters asked if we had some data, I decided to release it. You can download the full report here: Protestant Pastor Views of Mormonism.

The survey polled 1,000 American Protestant pastors asking them to respond to the statement, "I personally consider Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) to be Christians." It's a forthright question some will find offensive, but it will be an increasingly important question.

Three-quarters of Protestant pastors (75%) disagree with the statement, "I personally consider Mormons... to be Christians," including 60 percent who strongly disagree and 15 percent who somewhat disagree. Just 11 percent somewhat agree, 6 percent strongly agree and 9 percent do not know.

In other words, the view that "Mormons are not Christians" is the widely and strongly held view among Protestant pastors. That does not meant they do not respect Mormons as persons, share their values on family, and have much in common. Yet, they simply view Mormonism as a distinct religion outside of basic teachings of Christianity. Many of these pastors may know Mormons consider themselves Christians, but Protestant pastors overwhelmingly do not consider them such.

I know this is an unpleasant question to many, and one that some will use as a hammer on evangelicals, but let me encourage a different view.

The fundamental issue is: how divergent can your views be and still be a part of a faith group (in contrast to forming a new one). Can you believe, for instance, that Muhammad is not the prophet and still call yourself a Muslim? The vast majority of Muslims would say you cannot. For Christians, calling yourself a Christian while not believing that God has always existed as the triune Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is as inconceivable.

This is not simply a conservative evangelical Christian view. Methodists have said "the LDS Church is not a part of the historic, apostolic tradition of the Christian faith." Even Roman Catholics (hardly conservative Protestants) don't recognize LDS baptism.

As I said before, a cult is difficult to define. But Christianity has been defined a certain way for centuries. There is no reason to be shocked that devout Christians consider those with a different view of Christ as non-Christians. In the current cultural climate it may be uncomfortable, but it is anything but shocking.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: christianity; cults; lds; mormon; mormonism
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1 posted on 10/10/2011 7:50:47 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

Everyone has an opinion on this issue, but the only valid opinion is God’s. His opinion is written in Scripture.

Mormonism is a cult. Nice people, great dinner guests; but it’s a cult. It deviates from orthodox Christianity to the point where it is unrecognizable when compared to fundamental Christian doctrine.


2 posted on 10/10/2011 7:55:35 AM PDT by Salvavida (The restoration of the U.S.A. starts with filling the pews at every Bible-believing church.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Ping for later


3 posted on 10/10/2011 7:56:08 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2703506/posts?page=518#518)
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To: SeekAndFind

This article lost me when it consigned Norman Rockwell into the “kitsch” category.

No less than the renowned American artist Everett Raymond Kinstler has proclaimed Rockwell a genuis. And he was.


4 posted on 10/10/2011 7:57:42 AM PDT by miss marmelstein (Let's have a Cain Mutiny!)
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To: SeekAndFind
It is a cult. But does it matter? False religion is false religion, and one is as bad as the other.

Satan's greatest feat in capturing the souls of earnest people was the invention of counterfeit Christianity.

5 posted on 10/10/2011 7:59:25 AM PDT by LouAvul
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To: SeekAndFind

Simply looking at the differences of basic theology between Christians and Mormons demonstrates that Mormons are NOT Christians. Period.

However, this focus on Romney’s religion is being USED by the media to distract us all from the real issues of the upcoming elections.

We need to be aware of that.


6 posted on 10/10/2011 7:59:53 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: SeekAndFind
"Cult" is a cuss word that has as many definitions as it has users. Mormonism is Mormonism. It's not a variety of Christianity. Its claims and content (Book of Mormon) go way beyond historic, biblical Christianity by anyone's reasonable definition.
7 posted on 10/10/2011 8:14:03 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: Salvavida
Everyone has an opinion on this issue, but the only valid opinion is God’s. His opinion is written in Scripture.

I can agree with you there. But I can't agree that every self-appointed loudmouth's private interpretation of scripture is the only correct one.

That's sort of like the libtard's proclamation that their interpretation of the constitution is the only correct one.

I'm rather confident that Jesus will tell us which organized religion (if any) has a monopoly on the truth when he comes again.

I'm equally confident that he is going to look more kindly on those of us who were actively working together to keep back the hordes of godless liberals, sodomites and Islamofacists rather than nitpick against people doing the same because they didn't pass our personal Christian purity test.

And while I don't believe we can work our way into heaven without accepting Jesus Christ but in doing good works, neither do I believe we can earn our way there by making all the right professions of faith but in doing rotten works.

If your heart is set on continuously throwing mud at one of the most conservative voting religious sects in America, then I would not only question whether you are really a conservative, I would also question whether you really are a Christian.

Christ reaching out to the Samaritan woman is far more indicative about how real Christians behave.

8 posted on 10/10/2011 8:16:52 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: SeekAndFind

Let’s not help Romney get nominated and then we can ignore Mormonism.


9 posted on 10/10/2011 8:16:52 AM PDT by Lady Lucky
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To: SeekAndFind

if romney is the nominee the left will go all in to portray Mormonism as the worst cult ever, worse than Jonestown. I don’t think the LDS people would really want that.


10 posted on 10/10/2011 8:20:53 AM PDT by Jeff Vader
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To: Vigilanteman
There is a simple analogy which addresses the divide between Christianity and mormonism.

Here's the analogous situation, borrowed from Freeper William Clark, illustrating how one can have faith in 'a' Christ but not the true Savior Christ:

"I always like to use the analogy of Jim Caviezel [In Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of The Christ']. Like the Mormon Jesus, he dressed the part, spoke the same words (in the original language, no less), and was referred to as Jesus Christ within a specific context, but it makes all the difference in the world whether one worships and depends upon him for their salvation or the genuine article."

11 posted on 10/10/2011 8:29:32 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: miss marmelstein

What do they call the condition when someone on FreeRepublic bashes a story critical on Mormonism - but is referencing a quote from an entirely different posting? Is that called a “Freeperian Slip”?????


12 posted on 10/10/2011 8:31:08 AM PDT by jettester (I got paid to break 'em - not fly 'em)
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To: SeekAndFind

If you can’t leave without being shunned by your friends and family, and if you can’t ask honest questions without being shamed, it’s a cult.


13 posted on 10/10/2011 8:32:13 AM PDT by Abigail Adams
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To: SeekAndFind

I don’t care if a candidate is mormon, Jewish, or an Episcopalian. All I care about is the Content of his Character. Religion is secondary in my way of thinking.


14 posted on 10/10/2011 8:35:00 AM PDT by laweeks
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To: SeekAndFind
When Jesus Christ walked the earth there was exactly ONE Christian Church. HIS Church.

Today there are on the order of 1,500 different Christian faith groups in North America alone which promote many different and conflicting beliefs. Further, many groups believe that they alone are the "true" Christian church and that all of the others are in error. Consider, for example, belief in Yeshua of Nazareth (a.k.a. Jesus Christ). There are Christian groups that consider him purely divine, others consider him as 100% human and 100% divine; still others consider him as purely human -- the greatest of all of the prophets.

From the dictionary:

Chris·tian

/ˈkrɪstʃən/ Show Spelled[kris-chuhn] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ  or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2.
of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3.
of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4.
exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ;  Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5.
decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
EXPAND
6.
human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.
COLLAPSE
noun
7.
a person who believes in Jesus Christ;  adherent of Christianity.
8.
a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9.
a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ  and the Plymouth Brethren.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, AKA Mormons, are indisputably followers of Christ and therefore are Christians.


15 posted on 10/10/2011 8:35:23 AM PDT by Bigun ("The most fearsome words in the English language are I'm from the government and I'm here to help!")
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To: Abigail Adams

Agreed. If you believe that people have different levels of “worthiness” based on certain rules, it’s a cult. If your own parents cannot attend your wedding, because they are deemed “not worthy”, it is a cult.


16 posted on 10/10/2011 8:36:16 AM PDT by NEMDF
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To: SeekAndFind

“I know you SAY you are a Christian, but you are not.”

Pharisee alert. They accused Jesus Christ Himself of being from the devil.

I am soooooo grateful that Jesus Christ, my Savior and Advocate with the Father, will be my final judge, not mere humans.

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the amount of ignorance about me and my faith is perfectly stunning.

www.mormon.org
www.lds.org


17 posted on 10/10/2011 8:36:29 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: Bigun

RE: Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, AKA Mormons, are indisputably followers of Christ and therefore are Christians.

Can one be a follower of Christ and yet preach FALSE things about Him?

For instance, Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Spirit Brother of Lucifer.

“Thus it is shown that prior to the placing of man upon the earth, how long before we do not know, Christ and Satan, together with the hosts of the spirit-children of God, existed as intelligent individuals, possessing power and opportunity to choose the course they would pursue and the leaders whom they would follow and obey” (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 8)

“The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-brother of Jesus desparately tried to become the Savior of mankind”

(Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15-—this book was “written and published under the direction of the General Priesthood Committee of the Council of the Twelve of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”).

JESUS TELLS US IN MATTHEW 7:21-23:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me...’


18 posted on 10/10/2011 8:43:09 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: Jeff Vader; Lady Lucky
Good observations for both of you. I had fully expected that the U.S.S. Romney was permanently run aground on a rocky shoal called "socialized healthcare in Massachusetts" when he refused to distance himself from it.

Then the witch burners and Taliban Christians had to tow it back to sea because it was more fun to throw rocks at than allow the other ships to pass. Their poisonous rhetoric is the equivalent of going to an Obama rally and shouting the N-word.

There is a certain group of Americans who are politically uninformed but will cast sympathy votes just to stick it to these yahoos.

19 posted on 10/10/2011 8:43:11 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: SeekAndFind

When someone says Mormons aren’t Christian... he or she usually means that Mormons don’t embrace the traditional interpretation of the Bible that includes the Trinity.

_______________________________________________________________

I would disagree with that statement. Not that people don’t think they aren’t Christian because of the Trinity issue but that MOST people don’t have a clue about the differences.

Mormons as I understand them do not have the same Trinity definition as the Roman Church and their offspring. But, another question put forth in the statements is that their trinity belief is not biblical. On this I would disagree. The Saints in the 1st century would for the most part certainly have the same view as the Mormons.

In the New Testament book, Hebrews, Paul says the following:

1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

(New Testament | Hebrews 1:1 - 5)

Again a little further in Hebrews:

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

(New Testament | Hebrews 2:6 - 9)

One of the cornerstones of the doctrine of the Trinity is that God The Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost are co-equal and constitute one God. The early church saints did not believe this because the writings left behind by the early church writers did not convey this thought. This did not become popular until the enlightened fathers realized it had to be that way, but it was not always so.

There are many scriptural references that would make one question the doctrine of the Trinity. I will attemp to recall a few:

39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

(New Testament | Matthew 26:39)

In this we see that The Son did not His own Will but that of His father.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

(New Testament | John 14:26)

Again we see that The Holy Ghost is “sent” by The Father, not by Christ but by The Father who also sent Christ.

3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

(New Testament | John 11:3 - 4)
In this we see that Christ did not just call Himself The Son of The Father, but, The Son of God. You may ask, so? but here Christ refers to Himself not as God but as His Son. A son can inherit all His Father has but is always still The Son.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

(New Testament | John 17:20 - 26)

Here we see all the reason the Mormons need to disavow the doctrine of the Trinity as espoused by the Roman Church. The concept of members of the church being one with Christ as He is one with The Father if a correct principle would indicate that the Mormon doctrine of the “GodHead”, (their equivalent of the Trinity) would make sense.

Don’t misunderstand me, I am not attacking the doctrine of the Trinity. I am not a learned scholar to whom the trinity makes perfect sense all I have to go by is reading the scripture. If I studied this in seminary for several years reading the worldly philosophers who have made sense of this and what the scriptures really mean then I too would probably poke fun at the Mormons for their beliefs. They don’t do the seminary thing and are on a much simpler level of understanding than the majority of the seminary graduated pastors of other churches.

What I do say is that they believe in Christ, they believe in God and they believe in the Holy Ghost. They don’t pray to Jesus or to The Holy Ghost, they pray to God The Father as taught by Jesus in the “Lords Prayer”.

Are they Christian? They say they are. They believe in Jesus Christ as The Son of God. They don’t believe in all of the “Apostles Creed” but they do accept most of it.

I say yes, they are Christian, just not Roman Christian.


20 posted on 10/10/2011 8:43:40 AM PDT by JAKraig (Surely my religion is at least as good as yours)
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To: Salvavida

As far as I know the Mormons do not subscribe to the sacrament of holy communion so that kind of does it for me. They don’t believe that you get forgiveness through Jesus. They also believe Jesus and Lucifer are spiritual brothers. Mormons, nice folks not christians.


21 posted on 10/10/2011 8:43:50 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Saundra Duffy

RE: I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the amount of ignorance about me and my faith is perfectly stunning

Can you kindly answer the following questions for us:

1) Do you believe that God has a body of flesh and bones ? ( Doctrines and Covenants 130:22)

2) Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God and never had a beginning (not created)? ( , Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8 )

3) Do you believe that Jesus is THE ONE AND ONLY GOD IN THE FLESH or do you believe that Jesus is A GOD in the flesh?

4) Do you believe that God is TRINITY ( Father, Son ( Jesus) and Holy Spirit ), THREE IN ONE?

5) Do you believe that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD and NO OTHER, or do you believe that there are many Gods and We can also be Gods?

The above question have historically been considered part of the essentials of the Christian Faith, by which we differentiate who is or is not Christian.

Could you kindly answer the abvoe questions? Thanks.


22 posted on 10/10/2011 8:50:51 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

A simple logic test for those thinking on this issue.

If LDS/Mormons can be called Christian is it equally valid to call Christians Mormon ?


23 posted on 10/10/2011 8:53:14 AM PDT by Bidimus1
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To: Saundra Duffy
Jesus Christ, my Savior and Advocate with the Father, will be my final judge

I have not read your Mormon book, but the original Scriptures, Yah’shua Messiah says He is not the judge.

John 5:45 “But don't think that it is I who will be your accuser before the Father. Do you know who will accuse you? Moshe, the very one you have counted on! 46 For if you really believed Moshe, you would believe me; because it was about me that he wrote. 47 But if you don't believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

Yah'shua our Messiah paid the penalty for our sins. Revenge belongs to YHVH, the Father & He only.

24 posted on 10/10/2011 8:54:09 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: JAKraig

RE: They believe in Jesus Christ as The Son of God

Be careful, there is a difference between believing that Jesus is THE Son of God and believing that He is A SON of God.

And when they talk about God, you have to remember that their concept of God is different from the Catholic concept of God.

“As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.” (LDS President Lorenzo Snow, June 1840 ).

According to Mormon teaching -— God was once a mere mortal man, this couplet also declares that man has the potential to become God!

Is that Christian belief? Is this the God you believe in?


25 posted on 10/10/2011 8:56:06 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: SeekAndFind
For instance, Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Spirit Brother of Lucifer.

And this is false because____________? (Biblical reference please)

26 posted on 10/10/2011 8:58:27 AM PDT by Bigun ("The most fearsome words in the English language are I'm from the government and I'm here to help!")
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To: SeekAndFind
Can one be a follower of Christ and yet preach FALSE things about Him?

One shouldn't be throwing stones when one lives in a glass house. Christian doctrine is anything but pure because it says that the Word in which Yah’shua came as, was abolished while also claiming Yah’shua came as a new covenant other than that which He came as.

27 posted on 10/10/2011 9:01:54 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Bigun
John 1 ( of Jesus )

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the ord was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Jesus Christ is GOD. Therefore Lucifer is His CREATION, not His brother.
28 posted on 10/10/2011 9:02:19 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

As far as I know the Mormons do not subscribe to the sacrament of holy communion so that kind of does it for me. They don’t believe that you get forgiveness through Jesus.

__________________________________________________________

You are misinformed. The Mormons do believe in the Sacrament of communion, they do it almost every week, it is the reason they go to church.

They believe that there is no other means of forgiveness other than that of Jesus Christ. They believe that if not for the sacrifice of Jesus all would be doomed. All the talk about works and Mormons is misguided. They don’t believe that works do anything for your salvation, only that if you don’t have any works you don’t have any faith and aren’t a true believer. It is one thing to SAY you follow Christ and quite another to FOLLOW Him.


29 posted on 10/10/2011 9:02:47 AM PDT by JAKraig (Surely my religion is at least as good as yours)
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To: Bigun
John 1 ( of Jesus )

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Jesus Christ is GOD. Therefore Lucifer is His CREATION, not His brother.
30 posted on 10/10/2011 9:03:03 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: SeekAndFind

Revelation 12:

7 And there was a war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


31 posted on 10/10/2011 9:07:27 AM PDT by Bigun ("The most fearsome words in the English language are I'm from the government and I'm here to help!")
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To: patlin

RE: that the Word in which Yah’shua came as, was abolished while also claiming Yah’shua came as a new covenant other than that which He came as.

“I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:18)

“”Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” ( Matthew 5:17)


32 posted on 10/10/2011 9:11:48 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: Bigun

So when did mormonism canonize the dictionary to provide theological structure for their beliefs?

Was Jesus eternally God, or was there a period of time he wasn’t God

Was heavenly father once a man who later progressed to being a god, just like his father before him, etc.

Or will we see the standard obfuscation by mormons on these points.


33 posted on 10/10/2011 9:13:57 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Bigun

How do the verses in Revelations that you mentioned show that Lucifer is the spirit brother of Jesus Christ?

It simply tells us that another Angel, Michael defeated the Devil.


34 posted on 10/10/2011 9:14:09 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: Vigilanteman

We agree on almost all points, but private interpretation doesn’t factor in this discussion. The Bible is clear on the issue, to the point of being painfully obvious.

When we say we believe in truth, we are saying that there is only one truth, because truth is exclusive: the Law of Non-contridiction teaches us that. There cannot be multiple truths when dealing with systemized theology. It is mathematically and logically impossible.

I contend for the faith, I do not rip people for sport. I love mormons and pray they will examine their theology in the light of Scripture.


35 posted on 10/10/2011 9:14:29 AM PDT by Salvavida (The restoration of the U.S.A. starts with filling the pews at every Bible-believing church.)
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To: Bigun

John

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
...

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

Thus Jesus is Creator while Angles (lucifer included) are created

Colossians
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth


36 posted on 10/10/2011 9:15:05 AM PDT by Bidimus1
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To: Bidimus1

RE: If LDS/Mormons can be called Christian is it equally valid to call Christians Mormon ?

I believe Mormons consider themselves to be the one with the TRUE, COMPLETE GOSPEL and that Christianity is INCOMPLETE.

Therefore They can call themselves Christian but all Christians SHOULD BE Mormons ( or Later day Saints ).


37 posted on 10/10/2011 9:16:30 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: SeekAndFind
be careful, there is a difference between believing that Jesus is THE Son of God and believing that He is A SON of God.

__________________________________________________________

A valid point is made in this statement.

The doctrine of man becoming god has been explained to me as follows. Christ is Gods firstborn son, there can be no other firstborn. Jesus Christ is also "Christ", there is only one. Man will not become God. Man will if he accepts Christ as his Lord and follows Him will inherit all that Christ has. Christ said that He would inherit all that His Father had. Mormons say this means all titles, authority, all power and all dominion. If Christ inherits all His Father has that makes Him God. IF we inherit all that Christ has and Christ has all that His Father has what does that make us? The New Testament used the term referring to Christs followers as Joint Heirs.

So as appalling as becoming god sounds I understand it and don't (now) find it offensive.

Thinking that God was ever like man is something I can't explain for you you will have to ask some learned Mormon about that, they are here perhaps they will answer the question.

38 posted on 10/10/2011 9:16:43 AM PDT by JAKraig (Surely my religion is at least as good as yours)
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To: JAKraig

There are many different offshoots of Christianity, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Mormons, etc., that have many things in common. These various groups were formed by a person or group that didn’t accept the teachings of historic Christianity. These founders claimed to have authority from God to proclaim their doctrine is correct and historic Christianity is wrong.

All of the groups reject the fundamental teachings of historic Christianity, such as the nature of God, nature of Jesus, way of salvation, etc. Those doctrine are of the upmost importance and are not merely trivial differences.

Mormons, like many other movements, try to re-define terms like “Christian”, to mean whatever they think, but there is already historical precendent for such terms. Therefore, it’s entirely correct to state that Mormonism is not compatability with Christianity.


39 posted on 10/10/2011 9:22:13 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: SeekAndFind
What is a Christan? One who believes in Christ. Mormons believe in Christ. So it is up to you to get your mind right. Those who say Mormons are not Christian are themselves not believing in Christian principals..
40 posted on 10/10/2011 9:25:08 AM PDT by Logical me
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To: JAKraig

It’s not a matter of explaining why Mormons believe that Jesus is not the one and only God or that man may become Gods themselves. I’m not particularly interested in why Mormons feel they can defend the logic of those beliefs.

The issue is that such teachings of Mormonism are vastly different from historic, Biblical Christianity. Therefore, these differences need to be pointed out so that people can see that Christianity and Mormonism are entirely different belief systems.


41 posted on 10/10/2011 9:26:57 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: JAKraig

RE: So as appalling as becoming god sounds I understand it and don’t (now) find it offensive.

For the sake of sharper thinking, there still is an important point.

As a Roman Catholic, you DO believe that Jesus Christ IS God ( not CREATED by God, therefore, NOT God’s son in the sense that my son was born from me ). Christ was NEVER MADE, HE ETERNALLY EXISTED. HE *IS* GOD. HE *IS* THE ONLY GOD.

Do Mormons believe this?

The Nicene Creed which I believe you subscribe to clarifies this and deifferentiates those IN the faith and OUT of the faith with this statement :

__________________________

“We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];

______________

If Mormon’s do not subscribe to this, then even Catholic tradition cannot consider them Christian.


42 posted on 10/10/2011 9:28:52 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: JAKraig

“As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.”
The above is Mormon doctrine.
In 1 John 4 we are told to ‘test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God; Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,...’
A cult is defined by their belief about Christ and the Good News of the free gift of salvation. In other words are we saved by works or by ‘grace through faith?’
According to Mormon doctrine there was a time that Jesus was just a man but because of a right kind of life he became God. They also believe that Jehovah was once just a man and over time he was perfect enough to become God and thus create, sustain, and populate His creation. (One way God populated this earth was with many wives: Eve, Sarah, Mary,...).
Another definition of a cult is “a great devotion to a person, idea, or thing.” Joseph Smith is that person whom they follow. He, through a trance state, has given them the Book of Mormon which is the basis of their religion.


43 posted on 10/10/2011 9:29:34 AM PDT by PastorJimCM (truth matters)
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To: Logical me
Even the demons believe in Christ. And tremble. One who believes in Christ. Believes WHAT? Just believing in Him does not make one a Christian. It's believing that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day, that makes one a Christian. It's believing that His finished work was on our behalf, and trusting in that and that alone for our salvation, that makes one a Christian.
44 posted on 10/10/2011 9:29:38 AM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: Logical me

your view is oversimplified, since you fail to account for the different views or different types of “Christ”. Your assumption that Mormons believe in Christ is that the same Christ as described in the Bible is believed by Mormons, but that assumption is not accurate.

Also, mere belief in the Biblical Christ still doesn’t meet the threshold of being a Christian, since demons believe in Christ.


45 posted on 10/10/2011 9:30:29 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: SeekAndFind
Reading Scripture backwards does not help your point because of one simple fact. You do not know what fulfill meant.

The word in Greek is "plēroō" which means to "to fill up, give meaning, preach perfectly"

Thus when Yah'shua went on to say "Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened", what He was saying is that He came to instruct perfectly the pure Word by rebuking rabbinic doctrinal law of man, i.e., the Sabbath laws that restricted movement that is not found in the Torah, that had added to the pure Word of YHVH. IOW, the clerics placed themselves higher than YHVH when it came to interpreting the Word of YHVH.

Big mistake, HUGE! RC doctrine is no better than that of the rabbis who Yah'shua rebuked and called least in the kingdom of heaven.

46 posted on 10/10/2011 9:35:10 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: SeekAndFind

My guess is that the Liberals on the left are smiling widely at how this thread is going...

Focus on the policies of the candidates per the Constitution. Do not get distracted by theological differences among these candidates. Ultimately, that will work against the conservative message!


47 posted on 10/10/2011 9:35:40 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: Logical me

RE: What is a Christan? One who believes in Christ. Mormons believe in Christ.

If you use this broad definition for being Christian, then we have to call Muslims Christians too. They believe in Jesus too. Try blaspheming His name in front of a Muslim and see what kind of reaction you get.

Even Hindus believe in Jesus Christ. Many Hindus acknowledge Christ as a God-man, while believing that there have been others, such as Rama, Krishna, and the Buddha.

I guess, by your broad definition of what makes a Christian, we should call Muslims and Hindus Christian too.

That makes them Christian?


48 posted on 10/10/2011 9:36:49 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: smvoice

Here’s something typical that I’ve heard from liberals who claim to be Christians:

“yeah, I’m a Christian, but I believe there are many ways to God”

Me: “But what about ‘no one comes to the Father except by Me”?

“oh, He didn’t mean that.”


49 posted on 10/10/2011 9:38:38 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working for)
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To: SeekAndFind
As a Roman Catholic, you DO believe that Jesus Christ IS God ( not CREATED by God, therefore, NOT God’s son in the sense that my son was born from me ).

___________________________________________________________

I have never stated that I was a member of the Roman Catholic Church. I have done all I can to not give my personal beliefs. I do not consider it important for other to know what my religion is or isn't because I do not see anyone on this earth as my judge.

Is there room for believing that Christ was not always God? I would say there are plenty of scriptures that would lead one to believe that He increased in wisdom and stature. That He completed the work His Father sent Him to do. Prior to that what was He? I can't answer the question. I can only say that to me He is God The Son. Through Him I have the opportunity to live in His presence forever. If I get to live in His presence I fully one day expect to inherit all He has. He has told me as much through His word.

I do the best I can to truly follow Christ and admire all that do likewise but I am loathe to judge them without first really understanding their beliefs.

Mormons are different than Roman Catholics, Methodists are different than Baptists are different than Lutherans are different than Presbyterians are different than Orthodox Catholics. etc. . . . .

50 posted on 10/10/2011 9:43:18 AM PDT by JAKraig (Surely my religion is at least as good as yours)
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