How do Mormons answer ‘not Christian’ claims?

Washington Post ^ | October 12, 2011 | Michael Otterson

[Jeff Head]

I did not take offense at all to your post and am sorry if my response sounded like I did. That was not the intent.

It was not my intent to imply that you had personally implied or said any of those things about me and other LDS members, simply that others had.

The one difference was that there is an area where we are "all just alike," in that we all sin and are need of Christ's atonement...which is an Atonement we both believe in and bothy honestly feel we need. That was my meaning.

Thanks for your civil dialog.

We could go through each of those areas you mentioned and discuss them...probably not agree, but discuss them from each perspective. For example, our faith of and belief in the Godhead as being three distinct seperate beings is also grounded in the Biblical teachings of Christ himself and the apostles, as well as, certainly, what Joseph Smith himself experienced and testified of.

My real intent was simply to add my testimony of Jesus Christ.

Again, thanks, and God's blessings to you and yours.

[Jeff Head]

Thanks, Jim, I know that. We have discussed things here for far too many years for me not to.

I do not support Romney ether. Right now, since Sarah decided not to run, I am for Cain.

[muawiyah]

Hmmm.

That's definitely outside the pale of orthodoxy for the 1st through the 21st centuries ~ kinda puts whoever adheres to those beliefs over there with the Universalist-Unitarian movement ~ which began at the same time.

I suspect a lot of this stuff is simply New England obstrepriousness manifesting itself in the then alien environment of New York.

Eventually, though, all those folks recruited to the standard who'd earlier grown up in plain vanilla Protestant churches are going to do an internal REFORM ~ and then we won't have anything to argue with them about.

[Colofornian]

From the article by the top Lds, Inc. PR guy: We have a lot more to ADD
about the Son of God, and it is that ADDITIONAL
revelation that causes the real rub with some orthodox Christians. To us, however, refusing to accept further enlightenment on the mission of Jesus Christ is like a MATH teacher
telling his or her students they must stop at MULTIPLICATION TABLES.
No ALGEBRA OR CALCULUS allowed.

Oh, goodie! We have Mormon lessons that go beyond backwoods "multiplicatin' tables."

Here, all, allow me to introduce you to the first one found in Mormon "scripture" - Doctrine & Covenants 98:

"...if your enemy shall smite you the SECOND time,
and you revile not against your enemy, and bear it patiently, your reward shall be an HUNDRED-FOLD.
And again, if she shall smite you the THIRD time,
and ye bear it patiently, your reward shall be DOUBLED unto you FOUR-fold." (D&C 98:25-26)

What? "Doubled unto us four-fold?" I thought the second-smite reward was already 100-fold??...and now Joe says it'll be doubled for a third smite...well, not exactly "doubled" but "doubled four-fold."

Now. Why does this top Lds Inc. PR guy compare what Joseph Smith said to the equivalent of Algebra and Calculus in an article that has a broader context of Romney-as-president?

Why, Joseph Smith designated himself as a candidate for President of the United States (1844).
And 'twas the year he made the following statements:

* "I have sealed upon my head every key, every power, every principle of life and salvation that God has ever given to ANY man who EVER lived upon the face of the earth."
* "I have got all the truth which the Christian world possessed..."
* "If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. But I am learned, and know MORE than ALL the world put together" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 350)
* "I combat the errors of ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth-diamond truth; and God is my 'right hand man'" (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.78).

Whoa. It's good God serves this egomaniac as His 'right-hand man.' No wonder Smith "solves mathematical problems of universities," knew more than all the world put together, etc. etc.

When it came to "addition," Smith never could stop adding pride and arrogance and hubris to his claims!

[Colofornian]

Many of the hymns in the Mormon hymnal are undoubtedly familiar to Protestants and Catholics. However, I have about a dozen hymnals from various Protestant denominations in my book collection, and the Mormon hymn Praise to the Man does not appear in any of them. It's safe to say that one will also not find it in any Catholic hymnals. Listen to the hymn and read the lyrics to understand why. [Fiji Hill, post #21]

The recognition that protestantism is the necessary predicate for the LDS, and that in fact LDS theology... [Jim Noble]

Well, Protestant hymns have also served as a predicate for Mormon worship theology...quite strange for a group that references us Protestants as "apostates" who belong to the "church of the devil" -- with supposed "corrupt" professors making up 100% of our ranks...at least that's what Mormon "scriptures" and teachings tell us...teachings that Jeff Head won't reference in his "I, too, am a Mormon" FREEPER commercials.

Christian hymn writers like John Wesley's brother, Charles, who died in 1788 are included in the Lds hymnals...such as Charles Wesley's "Rejoice, the Lord is King" hymn (#66) as well as Martin Luther's "A Mighty Fortress" (#68)...and, 190 of the 358 Lds hymns in their book were written by non-Lds folks!

What's interestin' is
...contemporary Mormons who realize that 2 Nephi 28:14 didn't apply to Christ's A.D. church...
[2 Nephi 28:14 said "they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ" -- but the Book of Mormon says that was a "report" of the time period of 559-545 B.C.]
...take Joseph Smith vv. 18-20 in the Pearl of Great Price first vision to mean that...
...the "corrupt professing believers" Smith mentioned...
...were "ALL" of the Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox missionaries, pastors, writers, administrators, evangelists, hymn writers, and teachers of children & adults within their denominational sects???

Wow! What a "relief!" Here I "thought" Smith was condemning ALL Christians as "corrupt." Instead, I suppose Jeff Head & Mormons are tellin' us, "Nope, the 'only' 'corrupt' ones were...
...the hymn writers we incorporated into 53% of our hymnal book!"

[greyfoxx39]

When it came to "addition," Smith never could stop adding pride and arrogance and hubris to his claims!

"I combat the errors of ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth-diamond truth; and God is my 'right hand man'" (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.78).

I sure am glad I don't feel the need to defend this egomaniac any longer.... and I feel really sorry for those who do.

[SkyDancer]

Well go get a computer and learn something. Learn how to do research first before you enter into discussions with someone. I find that the more people agree with me the more intelligent I find them.

[Godzilla]

The one difference was that there is an area where we are "all just alike," in that we all sin and are need of Christ's atonement...which is an Atonement we both believe in and bothy honestly feel we need. That was my meaning.

With all due respect Jeff - we are not alike in the understanding of the atonement - it is one of the significant areas that separate mormonism from Christianity. Mormonism emphasizes the suffering in the garden as the atonement. Biblical studies show that the concept of the atonement was in the sacrifice - the death - not sweating. This is shown time and again by Paul who stressed that Christ's death was of primary importance in the atonement. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-3 he wrote, "I delivered unto you first of all ...that Christ died for our sins."

Packer likens the atonement to refinancing one's debt/loan. It requires continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Mormons have to EARN the right to that atonement.

"It is hard to know when we have done enough for the Atonement to change our natures and so qualify us for eternal life. And we don't know how many days we will have to give the service necessary for that mighty change to come. But we know that we will have days enough if only we don't waste them." - Henry B. Eyring, "This Day" April 2007 General Conference

For the non-mormons out there, mormon atonement is two fold in nature - 1) It atones unconditionally for the original sin of Adam and Eve and provides for a physical resurrection from the grave; 2) It provides forgiveness of sins on the condition of complete repentance and obedience to all of the commandments.

Christianity is much simpler - recognizing that the price was paid in full for our sins - that sacrifice was offered by grace - and not works - of humans.

[Vendome]

My apologies for the misunderstanding on my part.

I completely agree with you on this.

[Vendome]

LOL!

So intelligence is predicated on agreement?

Obtuse comes to mind.

[Colofornian]

Mormonism is the offspring of American evangelicalism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism_(Christian_primitivism) [rzman21]

Welcome n00b No, Mormonism is NOT Christianity... [Tennessee nana, post #12]

Well, I'm going to first give a shorter answer to this...but then wind this back onto a relevant topic: What Mitt Romney & other true-propagandized Mormons really think of Christianity.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints DOES NOT see itself as one Christian denomination among many, but rather as God's latter-day restoration of the fulness of Christian faith and practice. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism 1:270)

Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie ("Brother Bruce") "affectionately" conveyed the following to all Christians in his 1979 version of "Mormon Doctrine":
"Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Protestants, and the Church itself is not a Protestant Church. The true Church is not a dead branch broken from a dead tree... (p. 610)

MORE on this idea of a "dead tree" in the next post.

[Colofornian]

Mormonism is the offspring of American evangelicalism.

Back in mid-Nov of last year, Trent Toone of the Lds-church owned Deseret News wrote a “hurl” projectile rag piece entitled: What caused Mitt's defeat? Projects look at key factors [Hurl Alert]

In the article Toone said: The paper...provided...background on...spiritual warfare waged by evangelicals against OTHER denominations that view themselves as Christian but are deemed cults...

In response, here's what I wrote then:

Boy...these Mormons can't seem to keep their story straight...here, they imply lumping themselves into a "denominational" structure under the banner of Christianity...yet the Encyclopedia of Mormonism claimed:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints DOES NOT see itself as one Christian denomination among many, but rather as God's latter-day restoration of the fulness of Christian faith and practice. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism 1:270)

Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie ("Brother Bruce") "affectionately" conveyed the following to all Christians in his 1979 version of "Mormon Doctrine":
"Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Protestants, and the Church itself is not a Protestant Church. The true Church is not a dead branch broken from a dead tree... (p. 610)

I'd say among all the horrific and horrendous titles Mormon leaders have given of the worldwide historic Christian church for these past 180 years, I actually prefer this as the lone unoffensive title assigned to us by Mormons...for what is the cross but a "dead tree?"

I mean...consider the alternative titles given to us by Mormon leaders:
* The Abominable Whore of All the Earth Christian Church: Source: "abominable church...whore of all the earth" (2 Nephi 28:18, Book of Mormon);
* The Great Mother of Abominations Christian Church: Source: "that great church, the mother of abominations" (LDS "Scripture"—Doctrine & Covenants, 88:94).
* The Abominable Mother of Harlots Christian Church: Source: "...the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mothers of harlots..." (1 Nephi 13:34, Book of Mormon)
* The Mother of Harlots Great Abominable Christian Church of All the Earth (found, the devil): Source: "...the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil (1 Nephi 14:17, Book of Mormon)
* The Christian Church of the Devil [My, how almost "tame" and "plain" compared to the other Mormon doosies!] Source: "And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. (1 Nephi 14:10, Book of Mormon)

Now those were just the options available from Joseph Smith...but boy, once he set loose Lds "prophets," "apostles," first counselors, and the, they really uncorked some titles upon Christianity:

* Nothing Less Than the Whore of Babylon Catholic and Protestant Branches: Source: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' (Courtesy of Mitt Romney's great-great grandfather, Orson Pratt, an "apostle" within the Mormon church: The Seer, p. 255).

* Hatched in Hell Universal Christian Fellowship: Source: ..."a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invest a better engine to spread his work" [than Christianity...Lds "apostle-turned-'prophet'" John Taylor, JoD, vol. 6, p. 167]

* The Christian Church of the Mormon Devil: Source: "...the Christian God is the Mormon's Devil..." (Brigham Young, JoD, Vol. 5, p. 331)
* Christian Mystery of Babylon the Great Mother of Harlot and Abominations of the Earth Church
and Lewd Daughter Protestant Church:
Source: 'The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters (Lds "Apostle" John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811, Feb. 15, 1845...Taylor followed Brigham Young as "prophet" of the Lds church)

[You can text for your "fave" Lds leader title of Christians and their church @...!]

Hey, as long as y'all "nice" Mormons continue to call us by any of these labels w/a "smiley" face, we won't be offended...and we'll continue to think of you as "nice" Mormon neighbors :)

Back to McConkie's Church of the Dead Tree:

So: if you think any of these actual titles that your leaders have had for our church hurts the overall LDS "PR" image, I suggest you simply "tone it down."

Just follow Brother Bruce's lead and reference us as "The Evangelical Church of the Dead Tree."

"For the preaching of the cross [the dead tree] is to them that perish, foolishness; but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God." (1 Cor. 1:18)

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross [the dead tree] of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." (Gal. 6:14)

Therefore, I am not ashamed to be associated with The Worldwide Church of the Dead Tree--for it is the gospel (the "good news"). The "good news" is not an elaborate "system" of every belief under the Mormon sun that a 12-year-old LDS "deacon" is supposed to know before he dies. It's not every law, commandment, ordinance, precept, etc. in the LDS "scriptures;" it is simple trusting in/knowing the true God and the true Jesus Christ (John 17:3).

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth [LDS note: It doesn't say to "everyone that worketh" or "everyone that obeyeth"]..." (Rom. 1:16)

[SkyDancer]

See how easy it is? You’re getting smarter all the time.

[Colofornian]

It was not my intent to imply that you had personally implied or said any of those things about me and other LDS members, simply that others had. The one difference was that there is an area where we are "all just alike," in that we all sin and are need of Christ's atonement...which is an Atonement we both believe in and bothy honestly feel we need. [Jeff Head]

Jeff makes much of the atonement in his "I'm a Mormon, too" FREEPER commercial testimony he has now posted on more than one thread -- inclusive of this one.

Jeff says all need it. The real Q is can Christ's blood cover all of a person's sins?

The Bible says "yes" -- Jeff's Mormon leaders "no":

1 John 1:7-9 makes it quite clear that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from ALL sin (cf. Rom. 5:8-9)

Per two Lds "prophets" (Brigham Young & Joseph Fielding Smith) + a couple of Lds "apostles" (Jeffrey Holland, current "apostle" + Bruce McConkie), the answer is "no":

Prophet Brigham Young taught: "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.385).

If the above is not true, Young was a false prophet and the entirety of Mormon higher education is built upon such a man (who also taught for over 20 years that Adam was god!).

You see, Mormon leaders accuse Jesus of having rather anemic blood:

"Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church." (Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1 , p. 135)

Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote: "But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must have their own blood shed to atone for their sins" (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 92).

And: "Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93).

Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church:

Besides, this current apostle says God's forgiveness in Christ only applies in the atonement to current Mormon church members: From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church...
Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN)

[Gamecock]

3 is pretty heretical too!

[1malumprohibitum]

Revelations
........If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Galatians 1. 8-9

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Is this really even open to debate? The bible is quite clear about Johnny come lately’s trying to rewrite the rules. This includes mad mo and co.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

GO YE INTO ALL THE FR WORLD AND BADGER MORMONS SENSELESS ON A DAILY BASIS.

lol.

[Siena Dreaming]

No, not like that at all.

[Osage Orange]

Crazy is, as crazy does..........

[patlin]

No, not like that at all

So then how does one explain Christianity's rejection of Torah?

If Yah’shua is both WORD & SPIRIT, let's revisit an analogy of a teaching I heard that is based on an ancient Hebrew teaching of “black fire” & “white fire”.

Say the white pages of the Bible are the SPIRIT(white fire) and the black ink being the WORD(black fire). What happens when one puts the black ink on a black page that casts no light or contrast? Can one discern what the WORD says without Light?

Now reverse the scenario. What happens when the WORD is removed thereby leaving a blank page? By instinct what does human nature do when they are given a blank page? They write their own words upon it.

Therefore since Yah’shua Messiah is both WORD & SPIRIT/LIGHT, once either one is removed from the other, thereby basically severing Yah’shua Messiah in half, it is impossible to know Yah’shua Messiah.

Thus Any religious doctrine that proffers SPIRIT without TORAH has given themselves nothing but blank pages to write upon; whatever they want.