What the Church means by Purgatory

Fallible Blogma ^ | October 21, 2011

[NYer]

Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.

Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).

Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.

What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video

This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.

Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.

The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.

View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.

[Iscool]

1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

These are Christians...There are no unsaved people in the conversation...There is no talk of hell or outer darkness...There is no talk of punishment, only rewards...

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

It is the 'work' which shall go thru the fire...No man will go thru a fire...There is no pain nor suffering...

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Again, no man goes thru the fire...His work goes thru the fire...The bad works are burned up to be no more...

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

A man doesn't walk thru the fire...His works are placed in a fire pit and the bad burns, the good works abide and the man is granted rewards for the good works...

Pretty simple stuff here to read and understand...It's a matter of believing what one reads...

This is a judgment of our works done on earth before entering heaven...It's cut and dried...We can't do a thing at that time that will influence God...

No amount of praying on earth will change a single bad work into a good one...Not a single indulgance will have an effect on the outcome...

This very important information was written by Paul the Apostle...He too went thru this judgment along with Apollos and all other disciples who lived...No Christian passes around this judgment...

Paul speaks of being absent from the body and present with the Lord...There is no indication any where in the scriptures that indicate this period of judgment will take longer than a blink or two...

This judgment takes place in heaven...Abraham's Bosom which you call purgatory had the gates flung wide open...That guy you people speak about over there in Luke going to jail till the price is paid doesn't live in the church age...

He won't go to jail in this age...JESUS PAID HIS FINE...ALL OF IT...The jailhouse door is off it's hinges...

There is no purgatory...

[Iscool]

Faith AND works. Is the book of James in your Bible?

You mean the book written to the Jews???

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

It's in my bible...But perhaps Ephesians, the book written to the church is not in yours...

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So tell me, how can you comment on James without commenting on Ephesians...Are you ignorant of the book of Ephesians or are you possibly being dishonest by avoiding it???

[Iscool]

Purgation, by the way, does not purge sin. It purges some of the effects of sin.

In other words, time in the Purgatorial furnace burns up some of the penalty for sin...

Was there any atonement at all when Jesus gave his life on the Cross...Which sins did the death of Christ cover, or eliminate, if any???

[Iscool]

Col 1:24 NOT in the KJV, which shucked and jived on this verse.

Only in your wildest Catholic dreams...

[Iscool]

Christ died for my sins, and you know that all Catholics accept that. What you do not perceive, however, is the damage I did to someone else. I must do that reparation too.

I can’t cop out on my responsibilities. Are you responsible for your sins?

Jesus told John to tell you this:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[Iscool]

You got suckered by the KJV’s pussy-footing translation of “hysteremata. It means “what is lacking”. Paul uses outrageous language to express a glorious truth.

Wouldn't make a whit of a difference...

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

The verse clearly is speaking of the lacking of afflictions in Paul's flesh compared to what Jesus received, not Christs afflictions...

The bible is plenty clear enough...Jesus received more than enough suffering and afflictions...

We do not have to continue paying because Jesus did not pay it all...That's ludricrous...

[Mad Dawg]

Where does it say in the Bible that the KJV or the textus receptus is inspired?

Do the word study. That's what I did. I used my KJV analytical concordance and the Greek. I concluded that the they had pulled out an artificial translation of hysteremata in that one verse.

I first encountered this text it all its wonder in seminary which was going through a neo-Orthodox Calvinist phase when was there. I left just before it went utterly off the rails. But we used the RSV, except for us Bible geeks who used Greek and Hebrew when we could.

My seminary was VERY anti-Catholic, by the way, but the RSV agrees with me.

But to you I would suggest that a weakness of Sola Scriptura is the question of WHICH Scriptura, which one seems to have to go outside of Scripture to answer.

[Iscool]

outrageous...

[metmom]

Besides that has never been how purgatory was described to me or anyone else growing up in the RCC. It was a place you spent hundreds or more years in, in purifying fire, to ‘take care’ of the sins you had committed before you died but didn’t do penance for. That is exactly how the nuns described it, that was how the priests described it. That was how my religious education teachers talked about it. It was most certainly NOT EVER, EVER talked about as being instantaneous; the entire emphasis about purgatory was that most people were going to be spending a great deal of time there. That was why we said masses for people. That’s why we prayed for people to get out of purgatory. They were still saying masses for people hundreds of years ago to help them get out of purgatory.

Same here. Exactly.

Uncounted years of torment in purgatory were the best one could hope for since it meant that at least you didn't have to go to hell forever and you had the hope of seeing heaven some day far in the future.

We were raised EXPECTING to suffer for an indefinite but decidedly certain LONG time.

[Mad Dawg]

In other words, time in the Purgatorial furnace burns up some of the penalty for sin...

While fire is the most common and indeed the Pauline image, it is not necessarily the only image for purgation. "Penalty" in the sense that a sprained muscle is the "penalty" for walking or running incorrectly, yes. Not all "effects"are "penalties" in the forensic sense. If I spend what I do not have, my indebtedness is an effect or consequence. Is it a penalty?

Which sins did the death of Christ cover, or eliminate, if any???

Every one.

If one defines what we teach differently from the way we define it, one will find contradictions that do not follow from our teaching. We say, "For freedom Christ has set you free," while we think that freedom and responsibility are essentially related.

[Mad Dawg]

Another contender seems to disagree that Paradise means Sheol, but rather equates it with heaven.

The concept of purgatory indicates a debt that needs to be paid. Christ paid that debt. For someone to assume that guilt is to step away from the grace of God.

I think the debt metaphor would be unfortunate, but it is one of the biggest images in both testaments so I will have to find a way to live with it. But I have two comments:

I disagree with Salvation (It's hard to type that for some reason!) in her statement that purgatory is to purge the harm we've done others. I think it's to purge the harm we've done ourselves.

It's not about guilt as such. Vicious acts harm the perpetrator. They are crippling. It is that crippling, that self-induced disability, that spiritual self-mutilation that purgation addresses, in our view.

But there is another matter. Another deputy, a pshrink, and I were talking outside juvenile court about how psychology seems to be trashing the concepts of guilt and responsibility. I finally found a formulation that the pshrink liked and the other deputy said he'd think about. I said psychology doesn't seek to remove responsibility but to enable it and to enable a richer responsibility. To speak in extremes, a sick and deranged person is not responsible for his acts. He is not thought of as being ABLE to choose in accordance with reason. Psychiatrists and psychotherapists have the aim of restoring a person to responsibility, the ability to answer for his acts.

Our idea of the free and the 'well' person is that he is responsible and he seeks responsibility.

In some sense then, the picture of salvation -- of the 'end' of man in the strict sola gratia view as it is sometimes presented leaves us with the picture of an infantilized man. He eternally irresponsible and everything is done for him

Some of this is the limitation of trying to express in human terms what is inexpressible. In some sense what I just said seems to be to be correct. Everything has been,is being, and will be done for us.

But there is still the objection that the saved person ends up being portrayed more as God's lap dog than as Christ's faithful soldier and servant.

If I, under an alcoholic compulsion, do damage to my neighbor's property, part of my sobriety will include trying to repair the damage. And if I have harmed myself, part of my sobriety will be to exercise, eat right, and all the rest. I am not truly well if I do not do these things.

Yet,rare is the sobered-up drunk who says, "By my right hand,I sobered up," and stays sober. In the recovering alcoholic there is both gratitude for the gift of sobriety and an increased willingness to pay one's debts to the extent possible. To do so is part of choosing to accept the gift of sobriety, and at the end of the day, the recovering drunk is grateful that he was given the gift of freedom and responsibility from his affliction.

So (I would say),while the primary metaphor remains the lap or the child metaphor, still "the full stature of Christ" suggests(to me) that that metaphor needs to be fleshed out or adumbrated with a subordinate metaphor which takes into account being saved for freedom.

In this view, one possible way to express purgation is that it is the process in which we 'train our wills' to give utterly whole-hearted assent to that which we half-heartedly agree to now. NOW it is hard to WANT to forgive as we have been forgiven. It is hard, when we are humiliated or rebuked to put our whole trust in God.

In front of planned parenthood on Friday,God "appointed" a madman to assail, insult, and threaten us. I viewed the whole thing as an interesting and salutory exercise in learning how weak my faith is and how much I need God for every breath and every intention. You probably would not approve but I started and was joined a little prayer to Saint Michael,not only as a plea for angelic protection but to remind the others that while principalities and powers are arrayed against us, a far more powerful Lord with a far stronger army fights for us. "And he will win the battle," as Luther says.

So, while lots was going on there, there was also purgation going on. We were being offered training in faith.

[Mad Dawg]

Can anyone say, “justification”?

We can and do often.

[metmom]

This priest is very very confused! If any thing the Catholic theologians who are believers agree that purgatory is a trip to heaven otherwise why then cleansing. If it was hell there is no more cleansings. He never would of went on the trip(purgatory) to heaven. He is one mixed up priest.

And yet, I've been blamed for my being poorly catechized. It's *my* fault (allegedly) that I didn't check out everything I was told to confirm that what I had been taught by priests and nuns was accurate and correct Catholic doctrine.

Aside from the fact that one was conditioned to NEVER, EVER under ANY circumstances challenge the authority or teaching of the clergy (after all who was I to think that I knew better than they or to second guess them) if the authority I went to was no better catechized than that priest, checking out the teaching I received to ensure that it contained no error, would not have been worth the effort.

[Mad Dawg]

In verse 24 Paul was talking about “what is lacking” in the amount of suffering he had endured compared to what Christ endured

In your reading, "... what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ," means "what is lacking in MY {that is, Paul's] sufferings"? I construe it differently.

The Church (which,includes,the members, which is the fulness of the body of Christ, as Paul says in Ephesians, shares in the sufferings of Christ and in their merit, not at ALL on the Church's own toot, but because it is Christ's body, not its own.

Again the basic problem seems to lie in a difference over what we are saved TO.

[metmom]

MD: Purgation, by the way, does not purge sin. It purges some of the effects of sin.

Iscool:In other words, time in the Purgatorial furnace burns up some of the penalty for sin...

Was there any atonement at all when Jesus gave his life on the Cross...Which sins did the death of Christ cover, or eliminate, if any???

Actually, the question that I have is rather *Which sins did the death of Christ NOT cover or eliminate that I have to pay for myself*?

[Mad Dawg]

We’re not talking calculus. If there is no time that elapses between sinful to sinless, there’s no in between.

I think Leibniz Newton, and Dedekind are describing reality. What else can I say? Even if purgation is infinitesimally brief, it is still something, in my view.

[Mad Dawg]

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

What accounts for this insistence that we teach what we do not teach? The sufferings of the 'holy souls' in purgatory and of the penitents on earth are not payment for sin, strictly speaking. Sin has been paid for, as I have said repeatedly in this and other threads.

Consequently the idea of purgation as we present it is not about payment for sin. So I agree whole-heartedly with Hebrews 10:18 AND maintain that there is purgation.

Therefore that shot missed the target.

[metmom]

When we accepted Christ we DIED to our old nature, our old self. Purging implies an eliminating of that which is impure, that some day, given enough time, we can become pure. We will never be rid of our old nature until we die, so it cannot be purged from us here on earth.

Our new nature does not need purification. When we die physically, our old nature is finally eliminated.

The old nature cannot be purged as it is dead. The new nature cannot be purged because it’s already pure and doesn’t need it.

[Mad Dawg]

I don't know who raised you or who taught you.

There also seems to be a trap here. I did my own researches. I read at least as much Aquinas before I became Catholic as I have read since 12/26/94. I read a good deal before then, and I continue to read. One of the first things that became clear was that the scarey, self-hating, fearful Catholicism you all describe was as bogus as anything ever was.

Secret Agent Man's depressed priest may have been a good friend, but he was a lousy theologian and teacher. The promulgators of the idea of a vengeful God looking for an excuse to punish those who pass notes in class or who once had an impure thought were LOUSY evangelists and dreadful (in every sense of the word) Christians.

And yet if I say so, somehow it becomes MY fault that you were deceived into believing some Jansenist horror-story instead of the Gospel and wrong of me to point out the vicious and cruel heresies of your teachers.

I am fortunate to have escaped their blasphemies and sadism, and can laugh, with my friend Fr. Scordo, at "Sister Mary Sadistica" and "Sister Mary Yardstick" as bogies from a nightmarish fairy tale.

What I find, when I listen NOT to some two-bit disappointed priest or sister who has found that children are harder to control than he or she thought they would be and who has resorted to terror and pain in a faithless abandonment of Love and patience, but to the cheerful greats like Chesterton and Belloc and Dante, is:

Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!

They lied to you. Maybe unwittingly, but they lied. May God heal their faithlessness.

But, there is some culpability in acting like children when one is grown up. If you will go to Fr. Juan O'Malley Montini who likes his "good red wine" more than his studies and believes him rather than doing one's own homework then one has to take a little responsibility for not knowing one's faith.

[metmom]

The sufferings of the 'holy souls' in purgatory and of the penitents on earth are not payment for sin, strictly speaking.

That is EXACTLY what I and many, many other Catholics have been taught. That is what Catholics on this thread have been saying.

If that's not what it's for, then just what IS it for? What does our suffering accomplish that Jesus didn't accomplish for us on the cross?

Isn't that the whole point of Jesus coming and dying? That He did for us what we could not do for ourselves as we were/are powerless to do it ourselves so that we didn't HAVE to do it ourselves because we couldn't?

Sin has been paid for, as I have said repeatedly in this and other threads.

YOU have.

Not all Catholics believe that or teach it. Most claim that there is some sin which we have to pay for ourselves and that's what purgatory is for, to take care of that which we neglected (for whatever reason) to repent of while here on earth.

That means that we are still bearing some of our sin. But since the soul that sins dies, and the wages of sin is death, if there was any sin that was not covered then death in hell is the only option; nobody would get to heaven. That sin that we are paying for in purgatory with our suffering cannot be paid because it's not suffering that pays for sin but death and the shedding of blood is the only thing that procures forgiveness. Suffering doesn't.