Posted on 10/31/2011 6:33:10 PM PDT by Colofornian
Slap the hand when it reaches into your bag!
The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535541
Joseph Smith |
I'm glad you settled THAT conundrum!
"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."---Joseph Knight's journal.
"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.
"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.
In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:
"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."
"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)
In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:"When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12June 15, 1879, pp. 190-91.)
Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"("A New Witness for Christ in America,"Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)
"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.
That's tellin' 'em!!
Sandy is not interested in mormonISM she appears to be interested only in mormons. If she were truly interested in mormonISM it would seem that she would leave mormonISM and embrace Christianity, as mormonISM is anti-Christian.
NO!
See my tagline.
Wait a minute? I can baptized for the living as a well...breathing and now symbol of LDS?
When did this Shiite happen?
Why was I not consulted about a decision so important?
What information is required for LDS “members” to do this?
But you’re not Mormon, erh, Christian...right?
Why does it matter? Is there a bag limit on FR now?
Any comment on the substance of the post?
Didn’t think so.
Just use a little “trick” from the Alinsky handbook.
I'm still waiting to read the threads posted by FR mormons providing sourced articles regarding mormon beliefs.
I'm sure there are plenty of occasions where mormon leaders contradicted the statements shown in Colofornian's posts, right? Let's see them instead of the constant whining and ad hominems.
Mormonism's Demands of Christians
They demand that Christians not only recognize them as equal, but are expected to grant them equality while the non-Biblical doctrines and practices and denial of Christian beliefs are to be NOW (under the Mormonism Affirmative Action rule), left intact even though they have been inimical to settled and accepted Christianity since the inception of mormonism by Joseph Smith.
Mormonism not only demands a "seat at the Christian banquet table", it demands to set the menu, control the guest list, collect the funds from the ticket sales, and choose its own non-Biblical unedited and false message from its chosen speaker, all the while whining about being persecuted.
Thank you for this thread
Mormons have hated me and my Christian beliefs ande my family and their Christian beliefs for 180 years..
A couple of exposing threads over a couple of weeks or months hardly makes up for all the pain and hatred sent our way from the devotees of Joseph Smith...
Paredes, the Mormon representative, claimed that Mormons have never been permitted to baptize the dead beyond their own ancestors?
__________________________________________
He can “claim” all he wants to
but it has happened time and time agtain...
My ancestors are not the ancestors of the ones who have scoured the cemetaries and taken their names from their well kept tombstones...
or got their names from military rolls or from books of transcribed church records...
This is such an evil ghoulish practice...
I turns my stomach to know that not only were my Christian ancestors dead dunked into Mormonism...
But also many of the Jeweish victims of Hitler were also along with Hitler himself...
How sick and perverted does this practice of necro-baptism get ???
How would Tommy Monson like to be dead dunked into Anism or Islam ???
Wait a minute? I can baptized for the living as a well...breathing and now symbol of LDS?
_____________________________________________
It has happened
The wrongful baptism of Jewish dead, which disparages the memory of a deceased person is a brazen act which will obscure the historical record for future generations. It has been bitterly opposed by many Jews for a number of years. Others say they will never stop being Jews, simply because there is a paper saying they had been baptized, that the act of posthumous baptism is unimportant and should be ignored. We think this to be a narrow, parochial, and shallow view. We will continue opposing this wrongful act which assimilates our dead to the point where it will not be possible to know who was Jewish in their lifetimes.
A protest drive initiated by Jewish genealogists escalated it to a nationally publicized issue that was followed by public outcry. American Jewish leaders considered it an insult and a major setback for interfaith relations. They initiated discussions with the Mormon Church that culminated in a voluntary 1995 agreement by the Church to remove the inappropriate names. Activists continue to monitor Mormon baptismal lists, seeking removal of inappropriate entries.
Has the church done anything to uphold its decade-old agreement with the Jewish community? The bad news is that the Mormons did (and still do) hijack Jewish genocide victims and other Jewish dead. Moreover, when a Jew is baptized, the door is open for all of his deceased ancestors to be baptized as well. Regrettably, their baptismal records place before the public a revisionist view that these deceased Jews were Mormons, a position they would have rejected in life.
A commentator on this topic said that anti-Semites who desecrate Jewish cemeteries want to destroy even the memory of Jews by breaking their tombstones and other symbols whereby we honor and remember them. He concluded that baptism of the Jewish dead is just a more sophisticated form of breaking tombstones.
A blogger wrote: "I don't buy the argument that it's done for selfless reasons. It's not selflessness, it's arrogance. And especially in light of the Mormon Church's agreement in 1995 to stop baptizing Holocaust victims, it's even more reprehensible for them to continue the practice. If a church can't be trusted to keep its word in a matter such as this, then where is its moral standing?"
We want to say this to all well-meaning Christians: We don't want to be saved, redeemed, forgiven, reincarnated, resurrected, or enraptured. We just want to be left alone. After 2000 years -- is it so much to ask?
In 1995 the LDS Church and representatives of the Jewish community signed the agreement described at the beginning of this article. Jews have objected to the continuing Mormon practice of wrongful baptism of the Jewish dead, especially in the case of Holocaust victims, claiming that the practice mirrored the forced baptism of Jews in the middle ages.
A decade later this wrongful practice, which demonstrates a disrespect for Jews and Jewish feelings, has not ended. Because of public objections, the Church did remove names of thousands of Jewish holocaust victims from the IGI. However, they continue the baptismal ritual that hijacks Jewish forebears. Names of thousands of baptized Jews have not yet been expunged from within the growing Church records while new victims continue to be added. Removed names often reappear at a later date. Their practice of turning dead Jews into Mormons is a brazen act that may obscure the historical record for future generations. One hundred years from now, will anyone know who you were?
Today is my grandmother’s birthday (my mothers mother)
Although shes been dead for 50 years and died a well documented Christian no doubt she was dead dunked into Mormonism...
On my fathers side I have found his grandmother who died in 1945 and some of her forbears back a bit...
The Mormons have some erroneous info on this lady, my great grandmother, but they have refused over the years to change their records...
Regardless of the fact that I have correct and official documents they claim they never make any mistakes...
Members of her family have also been dead dunked, endowed, married, and sealed all the way dfown to all living descendants...
Since this happened to one of them in the 1950s and I was already born, that made me a living descendant, a Mormon according to the Mormon beliefs...
Well i dont want to be a Mormon...so that now makes me an “apostate”...
and that destines me to the Mormon so called “outer darkness”
SIGH
See how much easier it is just to believe in the REAL God...the LORD Jesus Christ and Him crucified ???
Actually, if we take the statement from this BYU prof (Daniel Ludlow, editor of the prolific Encyclopedia of Mormonism) below literally
-- a word which apparently some Mormon posters like Saundra Duffy have trouble understanding
-- then your observation is quite astute, Vendome!
Perhaps the most unique thing about our temple ordinances," wrote BYU professor Daniel H. Ludlow, is that they can be performed for the dead (those who have lived on the earth during earlier periods)
as well as for the living (those living on the earth now).
Such ordinances as baptism, the reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost, and temple marriage are performed in our temples for the dead and the living.
Source: Selected Writings of Daniel H. Ludlow: Gospel Scholars Series, p. 365
So. Per this BYU "scholar":
(1) the most unique thing about Lds temple ordinances
(2) is they can be performed for the living & the dead
(3) This includes such ordinances as baptism and temple marriage
(4) To quote him: "Such ordinances as baptism, the reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost, and temple marriage are performed in our temples for the dead and the living"
Hmmm...
If proxy baptisms & temple marriages can be performed for the dead, then of course it's only "fair game" that proxy baptisms & temple marriages can be performed for the living. Hey, Ludlow the BYU scholar says so!
And as for your insinuations, Vendome, that this is some kind of "infringement" upon you or somethin' *(Your Shiite reference & "Why was I not consulted about a decision so important?"), who are you to stand in the way of the salvation and eternal marriage of your own soul?
Oh, and btw, if a Mormon Smithesque "prophet" comes along in the future, and says Mormons can perform temple proxy honeymoon "endowments" in the future (especially for the more well-endowed)...you're not to complain about that, either, if you find a Mormon bride & if some Mormon dude becomes a honeymoon proxy "stand-in" for ya.
After all, to use the Niemoller analogy:
First they came for the dead to baptize them,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't dead.
Then they came for the dead to have them married on the other side of the veil,
and I didn't speak out because I still wasn't dead; besides, I was already married.
Then they came for the Jewish holocaust victims,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jewish holocaust victim.
Then they came for my bride at honeymoon time,
and the Mormons made sure no Gentiles were allowed in the Mormon temple to speak out for me.
Now I have a favor to ask of you: Would you repeat your same comment -- placing it @ this thread posted Oct. 30: Mormons even marry the dead by proxy (Vanity: The OTHER World Series
The reason is that the Ludlow quote is actually part of the vanity posted on that thread...and, since it discusses Mormon temple ordinances, is quite relevant there!
He wants you to repent of your error and to find the One True God.
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