The Old Testament Canon (An Eastern Orthodox perspective)

Conciliar Press ^ | David Lieuwen

[Belteshazzar]

I am not attacking you. You claim that I, whom you do not know any better than I know you, have disobeyed God, forsaken the covenant He made with Abraham, and sinned against Mosaic law. That is not a personal attack in your mind, apparently. OK. I am merely pointing you to God’s own words - not mine - to see if you understand them, if you dispute their meaning in any way. And then I ask then you consider whether they apply to you.

I have chosen only words from the Old Testament, since you have called into question my understanding of the New Testament ... something which, again, in your mind is not a personal attack. OK.

But tell me this, in the verses I asked you to look at, translate, interpret, and then simply apply to yourself, so I can see how it is done properly, what is wrong in this? Is God’s word simply empty, theoretical doctrine that we can bandy about generically, but has no application to the individual? Or is it directed at every human heart? Is it not speaking truth to every heart and telling each who it is who speaks to us, and demands of each of us - as God did of Job - who do you think you are before Me?

Now, if you just want to argue and call all Christians unfaithful and apostate, it seems to me that you yourself can be examined in the light of God’s truth to see how faithful and worthy you are. The words I put to you are not mine, they are God’s. Tell me I am wrong.

The result of this exchange - and feel free to put me on the spot with the same questions I ask of you - will reveal not only doctrine, but the thoughts of our hearts.

[patlin]

I called into question the doctrine of Christendom that is not based on Scripture. Doctrine that is opposition to John 7 & 1 John 2 for starters.

So if all you want to do is continue down a personal path, then you may, but that is not and has never been the path I wish to take.

[Natural Law]

"The contention of the CC that Islam and Catholics serve the same god is abominable as well as the contention by both CC and LDS that men become gods."

Exactly which Jews are you referring to? There were at least five different Jewish Canons that I am aware of; The Sadducee, the Pharisee, the Essene, the Septuagint and the Babylonian, none of whom agreed. The Church accepts the Septuagint because partly because it was accepted by the largest number of first century Jews.

[Belteshazzar]

So, patlin, you have no answer to what YHWH says in Genesis 6:5 or Ezekiel 18:4.

“The the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (Genesis 6:5)

“Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4)

And one more:
“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruits of his doings.” (Jeremiah 17:9-10)

God is not one to trifle with. I take Him with utmost seriousness, especially when He shows me how far short of His glory I fall.

I don’t sense that you want to talk about this God. So be it.

[Belteshazzar]

“Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?” (John 7:19)

patlin, I think to do understand John 7, and what it says to all.

[patlin]

Ex 12:49 “One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.”

1 John 2:4 Anyone who says, “I know him,” but isn't obeying his commands is a liar - the truth is not in him. 5 But if someone keeps doing what he says, then truly love for God has been brought to its goal in him. This is how we are sure that we are united with him. 6 A person who claims to be continuing in union with him ought to conduct his life the way he did. 7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command. On the contrary, it is an old command, which you have had from the beginning

Deut 4:40 “Therefore, you are to keep his laws and mitzvot which I am giving you today, so that it will go well with you and with your children after you, and so that you will prolong your days in the land ADONAI your God is giving you forever.”

They are not Moses laws, they are YHVH’s house rules for His children. One house, one set of rules for our protection & well being. It's just too bad religious doctrine of man thinks it knows better than YHVH.

1 Cor 1:22 "For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God"

[jjotto]

I think different posts are being conflated, but I think I’m asking the same question you are: Is every ancient translation ‘Septuagint’ or was there one Septuagint translated by the seventy elders? Who decides?

[HarleyD]

Let me know when the Orthodox Church accepts the Pope as head of their Church. Just the simple fact that Catholics feel they trace their lintage from Peter makes one wonder who the leader is of the Orthodox?

There is much more. It is nice to say the Orthodox and Catholics get along so well. But someone’s doctrine must be wrong. And that presents a problem when one claims their doctrine is guided by the Holy Spirit and the Church cannot be in error.

[Honorary Serb]

Here is an informed Orthodox Christian discussion of the issue:

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?6922-Jewish-claims-about-the-Septuagint-Pentateuch-only

The real problem is that there was not one “Judaism” before Jesus and at the time of His earthly ministry, but several streams of Judaism. The Septuagint (meaning the entire Greek Bible) was a Hellenistic Jewish book, not a Rabbinic Jewish book.

Rabbinic Judaism, as it emerged after 70 AD, refused to acknowledge the Septuagint because of Christian use of it as a book of prophecy. Hence the idea that the “real Septuagint” included only the Pentateuch.

However, to this day, we Orthodox Christians see even the Pentateuch, in its Septuagint version, as containing prophecies of Christ, and we use it that way in our liturgies.

[Honorary Serb]

In Orthodox tradition, the Righteous Simeon was one of the Seventy Elders, and he translated the book of Isaiah!!!!

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Simeon_the_God-receiver

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

ok, i’ll let you know.

[rzman21]

The Orthodox don't deny that the Pope of Rome is the successor of St. Peter. They dispute Rome's interpretation. I've flirted with Eastern Orthodoxy over the years, but I haven't become Orthodox because the preponderance of the Church fathers upheld papal authority. BUT it wasn't the sort of monarchical authority that evolved in the West during the Middle Ages out of necessity. After the Roman Empire fell the papacy was the only significant institution to survive, so it unfortunately adopted secular as well as religious authority. From the Council of Florence: "We also define that the holy apostolic see and the Roman pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world and the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter prince of the apostles, and that he is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians, and to him was committed in blessed Peter the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church, as is contained also in the acts of ecumenical councils and in the sacred canons. Also, renewing the order of the other patriarchs which has been handed down in the canons, the patriarch of Constantinople should be second after the most holy Roman pontiff, third should be the patriarch of Alexandria, fourth the patriarch of Antioch, and fifth the patriarch of Jerusalem, without prejudice to all their privileges and rights. The Melkite Church has been one of the most vocal opponents of papal absolutism for over 140 years. Papal primacy and authority yes. Papal monarchy no.

[Belteshazzar]

Well, patlin, you are beginning to repeat yourself. Thus I am not needed for your “conversation.” So I will let you continue it on your own.

[patlin]

I understand. I ignored the truth for a long time also.

[patlin]

Rabbinic Judaism, as it emerged after 70 AD, refused to acknowledge the Septuagint because of Christian use of it as a book of prophecy

Most of what I know about prophecy I learned from Jewish Rabbinical teachings. I will never convert because they place the Talmud(oral law) above Torah(YHVH’s law), but to deny their historical accounts of prophecy is to deny the devout Jewish writers who wrote them. In fact, the parables Yah;shua the Messiah spoke came right out of Rabbinic parable teachings.

You may want to rethink what you said and then actually take a read of Rabbinic prophecy & parable teachings.

[Belteshazzar]

patlin wrote:
“I understand. I ignored the truth for a long time also.”

Cheap shot ... but not unexpected. Buh bye, patlin.

[jjotto]

From your wiki source:

“Modern scholarship holds that the LXX was written during the 3rd through 1st centuries BCE. But nearly all attempts at dating specific books, with the exception of the Pentateuch (early- to mid-3rd century BCE), are tentative and without consensus.”

[patlin]

Not a cheap shot, just the truth.

Prophecy speaking of the times we live in today that clearly calls out the heresy of what Christendom doctrine teaches as the new covenant

Isaiah 24:5 The land lies defiled under its inhabitants; because they have transgressed the teachings(Torah), changed the law(Torah) and broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore a curse is devouring the land, and its inhabitants are punished for their guilt. It is why those living there waste away, and the people left are few.

Casting off the Torah instructions in leui of what I call greasy grace, just say you believe and you are saved, and then replacing HIS Holy appointed times with celebrations filled with meals of unclean food that come right out of pagan traditions, celebrations that are scheduled according to the pagan religious calendar does not bring honor to our Father or His name which is YHVH(Yahweh), not LORD or God. What Christendom doctrine has done is render His Word meaningless and without honor. It's all about restoring HIS honor, not ours. We are HIS servants, not HE ours.

[Honorary Serb]

Rabbinic Judaism shares much of the prophecy in the Bible with other offshoots of Israel.

However, the Septuagint contains other passages (and other translations of some passages that are translated differently in the Masoretic version) that have been used in the Church as prophecies of Christ.

The most cited example “the virgin will conceive” from Isaiah.

And there was no fully developed Rabbinic Judaism in Jesus’ day. That would come later, in the period after 70 AD, and included the production of the Talmud.

[patlin]

And there was no fully developed Rabbinic Judaism in Jesus’ day

This is simply not true. May I suggest you check out the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research and also jerusalemperspective.com