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Melkite Catholic Church to Ordain Married Men to Priesthood in USA
OrthoCath ^ | November 8, 2011

Posted on 11/09/2011 11:02:16 AM PST by NYer

Bishop Nicholas Samra was enthroned as Bishop for Melkite Catholics in the USA in August, 2011

At his recent enthronement as the Melkite Greek Catholic Bishop in the USA, Bishop Nicholas Samra stated that the Melkite Catholic Church (an Eastern Catholic Church in union with the Pope of Rome) will begin ordaining married men to the priesthood in the USA.

Bishop Nicholas Samra, Bishop of the Melkite Eparchy of Newton, Massachusetts made the comment in a dinner speech following his enthronement on August 23, 2011. The Bishop’s speech, newly published in the Melkite journal Sophia, contains the first published public statements by the Melkite Greek Catholic Church of their intention to ordain married men to the priesthood for the American Melkite Church.

Bishop Nicholas, the first American-born Bishop to serve the Melkite Church in the USA, noted that “we are on a shoe-string of clergy to serve our Church as priests.” At present, the American Melkite Eparchy, with 35 parishes and approximately 27,000 members has only “one priest to be ordained next year.” Worldwide, Melkite Catholics number about 1.6 million and are part of the Melkite Partriarchate of Antioch. The Melkite Catholic Church shares similar traditions with the Antiochian Orthodox Church, but entered communion with Rome in 1729.

Encouraging vocations among his American flock is one of Bishop Nicholas’ goals:

We are grateful for our ancestors — priests and laity and bishops who came from the Middle East and brought us to where we are presently. But now we have come of age and we need priests from among our people in this American Melkite Catholic Church.

Bishops at the Enthronement of Melkite Bishop Nicholas Samra in Newton, Massachusetts

Towards the end of his speech, Bishop Nicholas spoke of the need to both study and implement the training of married men to the priesthood in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church so that “hopefully soon we can see the growth of properly formed married clergy”:

God calls men and women to religious vocations. And I believe he also calls married men to the priesthood. We need to study this situation in our country and develop the proper formation for men who are truly deemed worthy of this call. The Deacon Formation Program is a good program; however is not the backdoor to the priesthood. Married men who are called to priesthood need the same formation as those celibates who are called. I have already discussed this issue with those involved in priestly formation and hopefully soon we can see the growth of properly formed married clergy. Of course there are also major financial issues to be looked at and we will embark on this also.

I began my talk with vocations and I end with it also. We need priests for your sanctification and the mysteries of the Church. Seminary formation is a must — please send us vocations. The Church is in our hands, mine and yours. Together we build His Body. [(Sophia, Summer 2011, pp. 8-9; issue released October 2011)]

The Sophia article did not discuss the issue of earlier restrictions on the ordaining of married men to the priesthood in America. Bans on ordaining married men to the priesthood for Eastern Catholic Churches in the USA were imposed by Rome in the last century, but enforcement of the Ban has waned in the past fifteen years causing many Catholics, both Eastern and Latin Rite, to wonder if the Ban should be taken seriously. Earlier, in the 1970s and 1980s, the Melkite Church ordained five married men for service in America as priests but the ordinations were ruled illicit by Rome and their priestly faculties were removed. However, a 1996 ordination of a married Melkite deacon to the priesthood was noted by the press but was considered “hardly a trend” with no recorded public reaction by Rome. At the time, the 1996 ordination was seen by some as “testing the waters,” but there was no push by the previous American Melkite Bishops to encourage married men to enter seminary. Nonetheless, the Melkite Catholic Church has long felt that their right to have a married clergy is an important part of their canonical tradition.

Changes have also slowly begun to appear in other Eastern Catholic Churches in the USA. The Ban is no longer absolute in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh, though that Eastern Catholic Church has to obtain individual dispensations from Rome for any married men it might ordain. Ordinations of some married men to the priesthood in the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the USA and Canada are also now beginning to occur. The Coptic Catholic Church, with no hierarchy in place in the USA, made a formal request to Rome last year for an end to the Ban so that married Coptic Catholic priests could serve American parishes.

However, the Ban is apparently still viewed by Rome as being in effect. An official of the Eastern Congregation, one of the offices of the papal curia in Rome overseeing the Eastern Catholic Churches, stated in 2003 that the Ban “remains unchanged,” but that it would no longer suspend the priestly faculties of married men ordained by Eastern Catholic Bishops in the USA. America reported:

Msgr. Lucian Lamza, an official in the Vatican’s Congregation for Eastern Churches, said on May 22[, 2003] that the Vatican’s ban on the ordination of married men for the Eastern churches in the West “remains unchanged.” The ordinations “are against the norm,” he said. “But, of course, these priests can validly celebrate the liturgy and sacraments,” since the ordinations are sacramentally valid. He would not discuss the Vatican’s reaction or lack of reaction to the ordinations.

Censures from Rome over this issue have not occurred since 1996, though tensions between celibate Latin Rite priests and married Eastern Catholic priests have erupted; for example, in Italy in 2010.

Bishop Nicholas’ public call for married men to be included in the call for priestly vocations for American Melkite Catholics is a first and is likely to signal greater acceptance of married clergy for Eastern Catholics in the USA. Greater acceptance of married Eastern Catholic clergy by Rome in Western lands may also now be occurring. Will it lead to a full repeal of the Ban on the ordaining of married men in Eastern Catholic Churches outside their traditional territories? Only time will tell.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: melkite; priesthood
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Catholic Church

1 posted on 11/09/2011 11:02:24 AM PST by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...
Although it is not widely known in our Western world, the Catholic Church is actually a communion of Churches. According to the Constitution on the Church of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, the Catholic Church is understood to be "a corporate body of Churches," united with the Pope of Rome, who serves as the guardian of unity (LG, no. 23). At present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church. The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, uses the phrase "autonomous ritual Churches" to describe these various Churches (canon 112). Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. Because of the particularities of history, there is only one Western Catholic Church, while there are 21 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Western Church, known officially as the Latin Church, is the largest of the Catholic Churches. It is immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff as Patriarch of the West. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops. Through the Congregation for Oriental Churches, the Roman Pontiff works to assure the health and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

While this diversity within the one Catholic Church can appear confusing at first, it in no way compromises the Church's unity. In a certain sense, it is a reflection of the mystery of the Trinity. Just as God is three Persons, yet one God, so the Church is 22 Churches, yet one Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes this nicely:

"From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them... Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions. The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity" (CCC no. 814).

Although there are 22 Churches, there are only eight "Rites" that are used among them. A Rite is a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony," (Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 28). "Rite" best refers to the liturgical and disciplinary traditions used in celebrating the sacraments. Many Eastern Catholic Churches use the same Rite, although they are distinct autonomous Churches. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church are distinct Churches with their own hierarchies. Yet they both use the Byzantine Rite.

To learn more about the "two lungs" of the Catholic Church, visit this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

The Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15).

A Roman rite Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his or her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman rite Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole. I am a Roman Catholic practicing my faith at a Maronite Catholic Church. Like the Chaldeans, the Maronites retain Aramaic for the Consecration. It is as close as one comes to being at the Last Supper.

2 posted on 11/09/2011 11:03:42 AM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer

My recollection from reading years ago is that priests weren’t allowed to marry because in ancient times they would establish churches in remote places that might rarely be visited by church authorities. If the priests married then the churches might be claimed by heirs as their property and the church would lose it. (Dons protective clothing and hunkers down.)


3 posted on 11/09/2011 11:13:19 AM PST by Gen.Blather
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To: NYer

Probably the best thing would be for the Vatican to offer a similar deal to what it does for married priest Anglicans who convert, likewise treated on a case-by-case basis.


4 posted on 11/09/2011 11:14:37 AM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

Already the policy. Married Episcopalian Priests are ordained when they convert to Catholicism without havign to anull their marriage.


5 posted on 11/09/2011 11:16:46 AM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy; MHGinTN
Probably the best thing would be for the Vatican to offer a similar deal to what it does for married priest Anglicans who convert, likewise treated on a case-by-case basis.

Not at all similar. These are not converts. As noted above, it is Vatican policy for Eastern Rite priests serving communities in the West, that they respect the Latin culture of celibacy. Though I am Roman Catholic, I practice my faith in a Maronite (Eastern) Catholic Church, that respects those norms. To address the shortage of priests, the local bishop has arranged with a monastery in Lebanon, to provide priests to serve for 10 years. At the end of that time, they may be moved to another country or allowed to renew their ministerial contract for another 10 years. Currently, our parish is served by a priest from that monastery. He has adapted very quickly to our culture and brings a wealth of spirituality to our community. The Maronite Catholic Church allows married men to apply for the priesthood but may only serve in Lebanon. The church strongly embraces priestly celibacy and only sends celibate priests to the diaspora.

The Melkite Catholic Church is taking a serious step in ordaining married men to serve in the US. I believe it will backfire on them.

6 posted on 11/09/2011 11:26:01 AM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer
There's a Melkite Rite Catholic Church near me. Both its pastors were/are married (one is now deceased) and both converted from Episcopalianism. The website is about 10 years out of date.
7 posted on 11/09/2011 11:33:31 AM PST by marshmallow (.)
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To: marshmallow

The allowance of married clergy was part of the union agreements between Rome and the Orthodox who became Catholics. We are only reclaiming our tradition.

If Rome wants union with the Orthodox a good starting point would be to recognize the self-governance of the Eastern Catholic patriarchates apart from the Roman curia.

Eis polla eti Despota!


8 posted on 11/09/2011 11:46:26 AM PST by rzman21
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To: Mr Rogers

The Melkite Church must restore its autocephaly to be true to itself.


9 posted on 11/09/2011 11:48:04 AM PST by rzman21
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To: Mr Rogers

The Melkite Church must restore its autocephaly to be true to itself.


10 posted on 11/09/2011 11:48:13 AM PST by rzman21
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To: MHGinTN

And what will likely happen with the Anglican rite. Latin rite will stay the same. :)


11 posted on 11/09/2011 11:50:24 AM PST by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: rzman21

Well, that would cause problems, because these Eastern Rites have always been a part of Rome. They either did not participate or weren’t around at the time of the Schism.

If the Orthodox are willing to accept Petrine supremacy, then we can talk about reordering things in the east. Until then, we shall see.

I have no problem whatsoever with the Eastern rites retaining their traditions in the west.


12 posted on 11/09/2011 11:53:30 AM PST by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: rzman21

“If Rome wants union with the Orthodox a good starting point would be to recognize the self-governance of the Eastern Catholic patriarchates apart from the Roman curia.”

I used to be EC. My family “doxed” 8 years ago when we got tired of the never-ending stream of “bi-ritual” priests and angry Latins who wanted more post Vatican II smells and bells.

The straw that broke the camel’s back was when the priest and some church members came to my wife (choir director) and demanded she not sing the correct tropar and kontakia (they had other hynmns to sing) and add “and the son” to the creed. She brought up the fact that our agreement to come into communion with Rome specifically stated (among other things immediately ignored by Rome) that the filioque need not be said and that our liturgy would remain unchanged.

Indeed, the agreement REQUIRES Rome to allow married EC priests, with NO stipulation as to the location of the parish.

Not surprisingly, now that we doxed, we get to live our Faith as handed down by the Church fathers without demands of massive changes from Latins.


13 posted on 11/09/2011 12:17:11 PM PST by cizinec ("Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery.")
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To: Gen.Blather

Your recollection is indicative of poor knowledge of the topic.


14 posted on 11/09/2011 12:20:07 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: MHGinTN
Married Episcopalian Priests are ordained when they convert to Catholicism without havign to anull their marriage.

Correction: Some married former Episcopalian Priests can be ordained after a lengthy process of study and the approval of their Bishop after they convert to Catholicism without having to anull their marriage. Said converts must agree that if their spouse precedes them in death they will then adopt the discipline of celibacy for the remainder of their life. No agreement, no ordination.

15 posted on 11/09/2011 12:25:22 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: NYer

Also noteworthy:

The previous Melchite bishop abruptly closed a seminary in Newton, MA, forcing Melchites to use the Lebanon (as in Syria’s puppet, not Pennsylvania) for ordination, to the shock of MY Melchite community anyway, or go to a Ruthenian monastery in Pittsburgh.

I’ll be sure to ask the bishop when I see him Saturday ;^)


16 posted on 11/09/2011 12:33:14 PM PST by dangus
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To: NYer

This does not surprise me, since now the Latin or Roman Rite now has an Anglican usage rite which accepts married priests. It was bound to happen.


17 posted on 11/09/2011 12:38:24 PM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: cizinec

But with efforts being made by PBXVI to outreach to the Eastern Orthodox Churches, things couuld ease up.


18 posted on 11/09/2011 12:44:19 PM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Biggirl; dangus
This does not surprise me, since now the Latin or Roman Rite now has an Anglican usage rite which accepts married priests. It was bound to happen.

This is quite different. In the Latin Church situation, they are 'normalizing' Anglican priests who are already married. In the Melkite situation, they are taking it to the next step and ordaining married men to the priesthood. This will not fly with the Vatican .. mark my words.

19 posted on 11/09/2011 1:37:22 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer

Canon law already allows it. The Ukrainian bishops in Canada have been doing it for years.


20 posted on 11/09/2011 1:54:07 PM PST by rzman21
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To: Biggirl

“But with efforts being made by PBXVI to outreach to the Eastern Orthodox Churches, things couuld ease up.”

I am very skeptical. PBXVI will not be pope forever and there is remarkable inconsistency between popes.

EOs will never accept supremacy and Rome will never settle for primacy. It may not be optimistic, but that’s the way it’s been for nearly 1,000 years.


21 posted on 11/09/2011 2:14:37 PM PST by cizinec ("Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery.")
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To: NYer
This is quite different.

No it isn't. One is proposing to ordain married men, and the other is also proposing to ordain married men. The only difference is that in one case the men were previously involved in Protestant ministry, and in the other the men were (usually) baptized Catholics as infants.

IMO, the requirement for Eastern Catholics to ordain only celibate men is bogus and wrong. It's a violation of the agreements by which they (re)entered communion with the Holy See, and was done only to placate certain American Latin hierarchs with a habit of sticking their noses in things that were none of their business.

Let the Greeks be Greeks, and the Latins be Latins, and if that means the Greek priest has a wife and 10 kids, good for him and Glory to God.

22 posted on 11/09/2011 2:15:49 PM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
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To: NYer

How are they “taking it to the next step?” You mean doing what Rome said they could do from the beginning? What they’ve been doing for 2,000 years? SHOCK! GASP! Eastern Catholics actually telling Latins they want Rome to live up to their agreements.


23 posted on 11/09/2011 2:18:33 PM PST by cizinec ("Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery.")
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To: cizinec
Eastern Catholics actually telling Latins they want Rome to live up to their agreements.

It would be helpful if you could cite that agreement.

According to the links provided in the above article, the Vatican position on married Eastern Catholic priests reads:

In practice, this means that according to Eastern Catholic canon law there is no restriction on Eastern Catholic Bishops ordaining married men to the priesthood in their home territories (Ukraine, Slovakia, Romania, the Middle East, etc.), but there are restrictions in place outside of their homelands.

Read More.

24 posted on 11/09/2011 2:29:24 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: cizinec

“I am very skeptical. PBXVI will not be pope forever and there is remarkable inconsistency between popes.”

True, but at least he is planting the seeds for the future. Considering the threats that is going on now against Christians in the Middle East, warmer ecumenical relations certainly cannot hurt.


25 posted on 11/09/2011 2:31:58 PM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: marshmallow; rzman21
There's a Melkite Rite Catholic Church near me. Both its pastors were/are married (one is now deceased) and both converted from Episcopalianism.

Hence the difference in normalizing priests already married. See the post immediately above this one.

26 posted on 11/09/2011 2:32:03 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer
I have one married priest in my parish who was ordained in the old country, and we have a married deacon who is studying for the priesthood. Married clergy has been a long-held Eastern Christian discipline. Rome needs to remember that the imposition of celibacy 100 years ago resulted in over 1 million Catholics leaving for Eastern Orthodoxy. We have a right to married clergy. I applaud our bishop for having the courage to stand up for our traditions and against forced Latinization. To quote the Eastern Code of Canon Law: Canon 373 Clerical celibacy chosen for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and suited to the priesthood is to be greatly esteemed everywhere, as supported by the tradition of the whole Church; likewise, the hallowed practice of married clerics in the primitive Church and in the tradition of the Eastern Churches throughout the ages is to be held in honor.


27 posted on 11/09/2011 3:34:20 PM PST by rzman21
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To: NYer
I had to go find out with what church they were affilitated.

Melkite – Catholics from among those separated from Rome in Syria and Egypt who resumed Communion with Rome at the time of the Crusades. However, definitive union only came in the 18th century. Melkite Greek Patriarch of Damascus. Liturgical languages are Greek, Arabic, English, Portuguese and Spanish. The over 1 million Melkite Catholics can be found in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Canada, US, Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina and Australia.

28 posted on 11/09/2011 3:52:00 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: rzman21

As a “convert” from the Latin rite to the Melkite rite, I ask, “huh?”

Didn’t detect any sign of schism being fundamental to the Melkite church.


29 posted on 11/09/2011 5:10:49 PM PST by dangus
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To: NYer
Union of Brest We require prior guarantees of these articles from the Romans before we enter into union with the Roman Church . . .

9.—That the marriages of priests remain intact, except for bigamists.

That is Article 9 of 33. Many of the articles are merely ignored.

30 posted on 11/09/2011 5:13:04 PM PST by cizinec ("Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery.")
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To: Gen.Blather

No. Closer to the fact that care for his personal family might compete with care for his flock. I suppose it’s plausible that a given priest might have tried to set up some legal situation where his family might inherit what the church might have, but a church building? Not seeing how he’d’ve been able to have his children inherit a church building anyway. The very practice of holding a mass there would pretty much establish it as belonging to the Church.


31 posted on 11/09/2011 5:16:55 PM PST by dangus
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To: rzman21; NYer

Married men will always be eligible for the Melchite priesthood, within the boundaries of the Melchite church. What is happening in America is a special permission has been granted to grant Melkite eparchs authority within the boundaries of another bishop’s diocese. Multiple bishops with jurisdiction over one place, allowing Christians to potentially choose which bishops’ discipline he will accept would be very contrary to the ancient Fathers’ way of doing things.

Instead, for the unusual circumstance of the need to preserve the traditions and cultures of a misplaced people, the Patriarch of Rome has extended an invitation to other Patriarchs to have jurisdiction over their own people, even when those people live outside of their jurisdiction. But, as such, it would be highly inappropriate for those Eastern Patriarchs to undermine the discipline of the Roman Patriarch is his jurisdiction; they serve their at the Roman Patriarch’s invitation, just like the Franciscans serve in Jerusalem at the invitation of the Eastern Patriarch (I think that of Damascus?)

My temptation is to say, “Ooh, cool! I can be a priest!” But as a Latin attending Melkite masses, I do not want to be one of those test cases that pushes the boundaries of the amicable relationship between Melkite and Latin.


32 posted on 11/09/2011 5:29:02 PM PST by dangus
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To: dangus
Nope. What schism?

Vatican II did away with the precedence of the Latin rite. For Rome to assert that the Eastern Catholic Churches do not have the right to exercise their rights because it offends the Latin Church is absurd.

We are a Church not a liturgical rite.

As Vatican II's decree on the Eastern Churches says: "3. These individual Churches, whether of the East or the West, although they differ somewhat among themselves in rite (to use the current phrase), that is, in liturgy, ecclesiastical discipline, and spiritual heritage, are, nevertheless, each as much as the others, entrusted to the pastoral government of the Roman Pontiff, the divinely appointed successor of St. Peter in primacy over the universal Church. They are consequently of equal dignity, so that none of them is superior to the others as regards rite and they enjoy the same rights and are under the same obligations, also in respect of preaching the Gospel to the whole world (cf. Mark 16, 15) under the guidance of the Roman Pontiff."
,
And as a patriarchal Church, we enjoy precedence over all other Catholic Churches of the Latin rite.

For Rome to keep treating the Eastern Catholic Church in a colonial fashion tells the Orthodox that union with Rome means the loss of their rights.

I might note that the Melkite Church DOES not accept Vatican I. In fact, our patriarch refused to sign the decree and inserted a reservation from the Council of Florence that: "We also define that the holy apostolic see and the Roman pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world and the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter prince of the apostles... Also, renewing the order of the other patriarchs which has been handed down in the canons, the patriarch of Constantinople should be second after the most holy Roman pontiff, third should be the patriarch of Alexandria, fourth the patriarch of Antioch, and fifth the patriarch of Jerusalem, without prejudice to all their privileges and rights."

Mandatory celibacy = Latin supremacism.

Canon 58 Patriarchs of Eastern Churches precede all bishops of any degree everywhere in the world, with due regard for special norms of precedence established by the Roman Pontiff.
33 posted on 11/09/2011 5:39:52 PM PST by rzman21
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To: BenKenobi
If the Orthodox are willing to accept Petrine supremacy, then we can talk about reordering things in the east.

Sorry, we cannot accept heresy in the name of false union. Saint Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

34 posted on 11/09/2011 5:45:50 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: dangus

The Melkite eparch has his own jurisdiction that is not inferior to those of the Latin Church.

Peace between the Latins and the Byzantines in union with Rome doesn’t equal us surrendering our rights as good colonials.


35 posted on 11/09/2011 5:45:57 PM PST by rzman21
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To: Campion
IMO, the requirement for Eastern Catholics to ordain only celibate men is bogus and wrong.

There is no such requirement. You're confused.

36 posted on 11/09/2011 8:07:48 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Sorry, I should have said "the requirement to ordain only celibate men in the U.S. (or at least outside their traditional territory)".

Yeah, there is such a requirement, although there shouldn't be. Google "Cum Data Fuerit" and "Alexis Toth".

37 posted on 11/09/2011 8:40:53 PM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
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To: dangus
Married men will always be eligible for the Melchite priesthood, within the boundaries of the Melchite church.

There are overlapping Byzantine and Latin Rite boundaries all over the place in Eastern Europe, and the Byzantines are allowed to ordain married men there, so I don't think overlapping jurisdictions have much to do with it.

The traditions of the Eastern Church should be respected, and a married diocesan priesthood is one of those.

My temptation is to say, “Ooh, cool! I can be a priest!”

To borrow the Lee Corso line: Not so fast, my friend! You would have to do a juridical change of rite, which is actually very difficult and has to be approved by Rome.

38 posted on 11/09/2011 8:45:53 PM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
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To: dangus
"Ooh, cool! I can be a priest!"

Have you ever worked in a parish or has anyone close to you? Glamorous it ain't.

About 20 years ago I had many people "suggesting" that I become a deacon. Mrs. Chandler was a Director of Religious Education and I taught R.E., was a bouncer head usher at a teen mass, and was heavily involved in many, many aspects of parish life. It was not uncommon for us to have Easter breakfast at the rectory. I got a bird's eye view of parish life and it isn't pretty, having to deal with hundreds and hundreds of people, many of them very unpleasant.

I knew that I would never fit in as a deacon because my tolerance for bull was used up. Can you imagine what it is like for a priest?!

BTW, this is not a Catholic-only phenomenon. Ask anyone who has worked at a Christian church or at a synagogue. Then think real hard before you say it would be cool to be a priest.

Now I am an anonymous parishioner and life is much nicer.

39 posted on 11/09/2011 10:09:30 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (Ah, the old Hope-a-Dope.)
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To: rzman21

>> Peace between the Latins and the Byzantines in union with Rome doesn’t equal us surrendering our rights as good colonials. <<

No, of course not. But you’re in the Latin Patriarchate, not Syria or the Levant. That means some attention must be paid to the discipline of the Latin Patriarch. People switching rites just to avoid one rite’s discipline would be terrible for the Melkites: consider the case of the Polish Old Catholic Church


40 posted on 11/10/2011 5:55:20 AM PST by dangus
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To: rzman21

>> Peace between the Latins and the Byzantines in union with Rome doesn’t equal us surrendering our rights as good colonials. <<

No, of course not. But you’re in the Latin Patriarchate, not Syria or the Levant. That means some attention must be paid to the discipline of the Latin Patriarch. People switching rites just to avoid one rite’s discipline would be terrible for the Melkites: consider the case of the Polish Old Catholic Church


41 posted on 11/10/2011 5:55:23 AM PST by dangus
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To: dangus

The Latin patriarchate is Western Europe. But no, I think that the Latin Church should leave us alone and let us be ourselves.

There’s no comparing the Melkite Church with groups that splintered from the Latin Church to avoid celibacy.

Few things make my blood boil more than arrogant Latins who think that being a Catholic is the same as being Latin. We can have our pretty liturgy and nothing else.

If Latins want to become Melkite or any other form of Byzantine Catholic they should be allowed, but they shouldn’t be accepted as candidates for ordination if they do so for self-serving reasons.

We don’t need Latins who have no regard for our spiritual, theological or liturgical patrimony in our priesthood.

Roman Catholics need to grow up and accept us as equals and not as inferiors. It’s little wonder why the Orthodox fear reunion with Rome.

It can start with how it treats the Eastern Christians in its own communion. The Melkite patriarchate covers all Melkites wherever they may be and isn’t tied to a set area.

The only people Bishop Nicholas’s move is disastrous for is the Latins, and he is right to defend our rights against bigoted and intolerant Roman Catholics.


42 posted on 11/10/2011 7:25:25 AM PST by rzman21
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To: rzman21

Let’s be clear, here:

Should the Russian Orthodox church, for instance, reunite with the Roman Catholic church, then Russia would be under the discipline of the Russian patriarch, and may continue ordaining married priests.

The Americas are in the Latin Patriarchate. They were settled, explored, populated and missionized by those under the discipline of the Latin Patriarchate.


43 posted on 11/10/2011 9:11:06 AM PST by dangus
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To: dangus

The Latin patriarchate only includes those of the Latin rite.


44 posted on 11/10/2011 9:13:40 AM PST by rzman21
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To: dangus

Your point is moot considering that the Latin archdiocese of Lvov in Ukraine overlaps that of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

What we need to be clear about is that all Catholic traditions are equal and we Eastern Christians shouldn’t be worried if we scandalize our Roman Catholic brethren by being ourselves.

The only thing barring us from having married priests and governing ourselves does is send the message to the Orthodox to stay away.

If anything is promoting the temptation to schism, it is the intolerance of the Latins. If Abp. John Ireland and the rest of the Latin hierarchy had been tolerant of legitimate diversity.

If you have a problem with our bishop’s decision. That is your problem. Don’t tell us what it means to be a Catholic.


45 posted on 11/10/2011 9:20:39 AM PST by rzman21
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To: rzman21

I never said I disagree with the Bishop’s decision; I only contradicted the notion that it was none of the Bishop of Rome’s business. I actually sincerely hope that the Bishop of Rome permits the eparchy to ordain married men... so much so that I immediately wrote off taking advantage of the policy myself, because I believe as a Latin I would be a case for not approving it.

As a Latin, I’d attended many Eastern-rite masses. I chose the one that’s probably the most dissimilar of the ones I’ve attended to the Latin rite to adopt as my own, the Melkite. So I assure you, I certainly don’t want the Melkites to be more like the hyper-politicized, leftist-ingrained, Protestantized, masonically filtered Latins that are all too common.

My cause from concern from you is that you were ready for schism at the mere suggestion that the Pope MAY not permit the ordination of married men; I was not asserting that the pope should or reasonably could override the Melkite bishop. I was asserting that the pope’s interests were entirely legitimate.

You write as if you bitterly oppose the union of the two churches. That’s sad. The West needs to be re-evangelized by the East, and the East needs to be universalized, because the Christian presence in Lebanon and Syria is looking vaporous and the Melchite churches in America have relied heavily on the ability to cooperate with the West. As a case in point, the previous Melkite bishop closed the only Western seminary, to the strong dismay of Rome, and is now thoroughly dependent on non-Melkite resources for the education of its priests... or else send them to Lebanon.


46 posted on 11/10/2011 10:26:41 AM PST by dangus
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To: dangus

oh, and for the record: the Roman Catholic diocese of Lviv of the Latins exists because there was no church in union with Rome until 1595 in that region, so the Polish/Slavs living in the area had to turn to Rome for a priesthood. By the time that some of the Orthodox church in the Ukraine rejoined the Catholic church, there was a separate, Latin tradition within the Ukraine.


47 posted on 11/10/2011 10:38:15 AM PST by dangus
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To: dangus

The Latins have their discipline. We have ours. You have the right to your celibate-only priesthood, but we have the equal right to our married priesthood.

All I was doing was pointing out how the unfortunate actions of the Roman Catholic hierarchy and successive Popes created nothing but schism. The problem isn’t with the Eastern Christians, but rather with narrow-minded Roman Catholics who refuse to accept unity amid diversity.

Also, there is far more to being Melkite or Eastern Catholic than celebrating a different Divine Liturgy.

I’d say far more ignorance and intolerance today comes from Latin Catholic laity who associate Latin practices with being Catholic.

From the Sixth Ecumenical Council at Trullo:
CANON XIII.

SINCE we know it to be handed down as a rule of the Roman Church that those who are deemed worthy to be advanced to the diaconate or presbyterate should promise no longer to cohabit with their wives, we, preserving the ancient rule and apostolic perfection and order, will that the lawful marriages of men who are in holy orders be from this time forward firm, by no means dissolving their union with their wives nor depriving them of their mutual intercourse at a convenient time. Wherefore, if anyone shall have been found worthy to be ordained subdeacon, or deacon, or presbyter, he is by no means to be prohibited from admittance to such a rank, even if he shall live with a lawful wife. Nor shall it be demanded of him at the time of his ordination that he promise to abstain from lawful intercourse with his wife: lest we should affect injuriously marriage constituted by God and blessed by his presence, as the Gospel saith: “What God hath joined together let no man put asunder;” and the Apostle saith, “Marriage is honourable and the bed undefiled;” and again, “Art thou bound to a wife? seek not to be loosed.” But we know, as they who assembled at Carthage (with a care for the honest life of the clergy) said, that subdeacons, who handle the Holy Mysteries, and deacons, and presbyters should abstain from their consorts according to their own course [of ministration]. So that what has been handed down through the Apostles and preserved by ancient custom, we too likewise maintain, knowing that there is a time for all things and especially for fasting and prayer. For it is meet that they who assist at the divine altar should be absolutely continent when they are handling holy things, in order that they may be able to obtain froth God what they ask in sincerity.

If therefore anyone shall have dared, contrary to the Apostolic Canons, to deprive any of those who are in holy orders, presbyter, or deacon, or subdeacon of cohabitation and intercourse with his lawful wife, let him be deposed. In like manner also if any presbyter or deacon on pretence of piety has dismissed his wife, let him be excluded from communion; and if he persevere in this let him be deposed.

NOTES.

ANCIENT EPITOME OF CANON XIII.

Although the Romans wish that everyone ordained deacon or presbyter should put away his wife, we wish the marriages of deacons and presbyters to continue valid and firm.


48 posted on 11/10/2011 3:22:07 PM PST by rzman21
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To: dangus

My point about the Latin Church in Lviv is that Eastern Catholics cohabiting the same area as the Latins means absolutely nothing when it comes to celibacy.

The Ukrainian Church kept its married clergy after union with Rome despite the fact it was in Poland, which was part of the Roman patriarchate as you put it.

I might also note that Pope Benedict XVI suppressed the patriarchate after he became Pope.


49 posted on 11/10/2011 3:26:20 PM PST by rzman21
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To: rzman21

I hope someone told this guy:

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/new-ukrainian-prelate-speaks-of-hope-for-church-unity/

(IOW: No he didn’t.)

And you’re still completely missing my point: The Ukranian Greek Catholic church was an historically established church in the Ukraine, but there were also many Polish Latins who had remained in union when the UGC was in schism. There’s no such situation here in America with the Melchites. The Melchites never had Americans priests who were married, and their presence in the US was established long after the Latins.

That said, if they can work it out some way to have married priests without encouraging men to switch rites to become priests, let them go for it!


50 posted on 11/10/2011 5:08:13 PM PST by dangus
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