Posted on 11/21/2011 12:43:59 PM PST by Former Fetus
Israel is a nation, the true Israel of God is a nation of believers, not of DNA.
The Sabbath continues in Jesus Christ, it is in Him that we rest.
He is the ruler today of Israel. Israel has a temple and it is everyone who belongs to Christ.
The one thing we know for certain from the Bible is that whenever a new doctrine is introduced, if it does not line up with Scripture, it is a lie. If something is added to or taken from Scripture in order to introduce a "new doctrine" it is a lie. If "tradition" does not line up with God's Word, it is a lie.
That is, IF we follow Acts 17:11 and 2 Tim. 2:15.
“does not line up with the Scriptures, it is a lie”
Really? a “lie” according to who?
let’s test your theory.
Jesus said the Eucharist is His Body, Christians have taught and believed this for 2,000 years. Mark 14:22 teaches this doctrine.
so, you believe this Biblical doctrine, don’t you?
Completely agree. Much of Christianity today is in the same situation as Judaism in the time of Christ...tradition and the opinions of men have overshadowed the word of God:
Mat 15:5 But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"—
Mat 15:6 then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
Mat 15:8 'THESE PEOPLE DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME.
Mat 15:9 AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.' "
here we have two people claiming that they follow the Scriptures and coming to two different conclusions.
thank you for making my point better than i ever could.
two opinions, NO AUTHORITY.
both denying Jesus gave AUTHORITY to His Church to teach.
both placing themselves above the Scriptures, making themselves the ultimate authority.
both rejecting historical, orthodox Christian doctrine.
God is not the author of confusion.
I'm not quite sure what you mean. This is Moses speaking of the old covenant. Of course God didn't make that covenant with anyone who came before Moses.
The covenant was the agreement that Israel made with God. The terms were that Israel would KEEP God's commandments.
The old covenant is no longer in effect. But God's commandments didn't go anywhere. They still exist. They existed before the covenant and they still exist today.
Every single one of the objections to the Sabbath in favor of Sunday or “no day” are easily and simply overcome using scripture.
Where would y’all like me to start? And no, SDA scholars do NOT agree the Sabbath started with the apostolic church. LOL...you people come up with funny stuff.
I either know our best ones personally or know of them, read them, or watch them on our channels, 3ABN, Hope Channel, Loma Linda Channel, etc. They would laugh at that.
I am going to read responses and will respond to anyone sincerely seeking truth on this subject. Someone with an open mind who has a question and it can include any of the objections already brought up.
I figure there has to be at least one person here who is wanting to know more about the Sabbath and has heard the objections stated and may even accept them. If you are that person or persons.....and I can usually tell by the tone of your posts......let’s debate and discuss it here and openly and you can watch as I destroy each objection. Each and every one of them and you will see how shallow and superficial they are.
As my old pastor said......it’s not hard to learn the true Sabbath doctrine.....all a person has to do is be able to count to 7.
Ok, please let me know which objection you want to tackle first and we can go through every one of them. Thank you.
The idea in the first sentence is found nowhere in scripture. But it is one of the many viewpoints that have arisen in post-biblical times.
The nation Israel still has no Temple. Hsa 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
The problem again wasn't with the Lord's feast days or sabbaths. How can God make something for himself that is flawed? The problem was that Israel had (among other things) had created and embraced false feasts.
1Ki 12:32 Jeroboam ordained a feast on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, like the feast that was in Judah, and offered sacrifices on the altar. So he did at Bethel, sacrificing to the calves that he had made. And at Bethel he installed the priests of the high places which he had made.
This is why God calls them "her feasts" and not "His feasts".
There's a warning for people today: Don't create your own holy days and think that God is going to sanction them. God's feasts days are His. Look at the examples above.
care to address post #60?
I agree completely. Look at the issue of circumcision under the new covenant and the controversy that it generated in scripture.
Now contrast that with the supposed "changing" of the Lord's sabbath and holy days. Where is the controversy in scripture over this supposed change? There is none because it didn't happen until long after Jesus Christ died. Everyone kept the sabbath in the bible.
where were the “true” Sabbath keeping Christians when the pagans brought the worship of the sun into the “christian” church? who stood up to these pagans and proclaimed Christians need to keep the Sabbath? what were their names, where are their writings?
The victor writes the history. Certainly there was controversy over the issue. Nearly 300 years after the deah of Christ the Council of Laodecia had to make this an "official" church position:
Canon XXIX. Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath…
Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.
Remember, this is almost 300 years after Christ died and we must have some pesky Christians who are still following that pesky bible or else why make this canon?
I'm not sure where you're seeing disagreement. And I don't claim to follow scripture alone. I've already said that the church is used for teaching. By the "church" though I mean what Jesus meant...the called out body of believers that follow his ways and his teachings.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made NOT THIS COVENANT with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.
BUT NOW,
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Wherefore, also we keep the 8th day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose from the dead” (Epistle of Barnabas, 75-100 AD).
“Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish Law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace…If, therefore, those who brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Ignatius of Antioch, 107 AD).
“Furthermore, I do not suppose that you need to learn from me how ridiculous and unworthy of any argument are their scruples about food, their superstition about the Sabbath, their pride in circumcision, and their shame in fasting” (Letter to Diognetus, 125 AD).
“On the day called Sunday all who live in the cities or in the country gather together in one place, and the memoirs of the Apostles of the writings of the prophets are read…But Sunday is the day on which we all hold a common assembly, because it is the first day of the week on which God…made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead” (Justin Martyr, 145 AD).
“We solemnize the day after Saturday in contradistinction to those who call this day their Sabbath”(Tertullian, 200 AD).
“The Apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be services and reading of the holy Scriptures and the oblation, because on the first day of the week our Lord rose from the place of the dead” (The Didascalia, 225 AD).
“The day of the light…was the day of his Resurrection from the dead, which they say as being the one and only truly holyday and the Lord’s Day” (Eusebius of Caesarea, 319 AD).
taken from the “all experts” web site.
The Catholic Church was worshipping on Sunday well before the Council of Laodecia.
please note what Ignatius had to say. This man was personally taught by the Apostle John and was torn to pieces by lions in Rome.
why follow a false prophetess like Ellen White who taught Jesus was a created being, an angel, who was MADE equal with the Father? such blasphemy!!
Ok....let me take a look.
Couldn't agree with you more Ruy.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Who is the new covenant made with? Hint: NOT gentiles.
Jer 31:32 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Who "broke" the agreement? Hint: Israel.
They broke the terms of the covenant, which were the 10 commandments, the law of God.
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
What "law" is written in the hearts of believers? Hint: The same laws as the old covenant...the ten commandments.
God's spirit changes our nature and transforms us to be like him. This is a distinct advantage over those of ancient Israel who did not have God's indwelling spirit to lead and guide them into truth and love inwardly.
Did Yah'shua rise on a Sunday orshalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
did he rise on the YHvH commanded
Feast of First Fruits ? ( Lev 23:10-15)
**** or watch them on our channels, 3ABN, Hope Channel, Loma Linda Channel, etc. They would laugh at that.****
Like preaching to the choir.
***As my old pastor said......it’s not hard to learn the true Sabbath doctrine.....all a person has to do is be able to count to 7.***
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
Weak and beggarly elements is correct. I will keep LIBERTY in CHRIST.
However I don't doubt that some were worshipping on Sunday despite the clear teaching of scripture...especially in the Roman empire. Many of the new testament writers warned about these strange practices:
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
2Ti 4:4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
The twisting of the Lord's holy sabbath into a different day and different celebration can only happen if one throws away the authority of scripture.
Is this the post (and points)you would like me to address? (see below)
If so, here is my response:
1. The SDA church was not formed by Ellen G. White. She was a guiding force in helping keep the church on course but she did not form it. And the official position of the church is that she is not equal in authority to the Bible. The Bible is our supreme authority. We test her writings to the Bible, not the Bible to her. So far as I can tell, she passes the test in virtually every respect. She pointed people to the Bible and to Christ. She said her writings are not to used as a substitute for canon. And she never claimed to be infallible. In fact, she said we have much to learn and much more to unlearn. Her writings are for personal use to help lead us to the Bible and the Bible alone and Christ. In fact, she said had people read their Bible , there would be no need for her writings. I could write a lot more on her and if you care to open that up for discussion, I would be glad too. But that is another subject.
The official position of the Adventist Church is the the Bible and Bible alone is our supreme authority and all anyone needs. We are Protestants before we are Adventists.
2. When it comes to the Sabbath itself, I suggest we stick to the Bible and Bible alone. Not general statements about history and or Joseph Smith, (Mormons have a different authority) or even who it was that set the 27. I am aware of where get got the 27 from. But I am also aware of books the Roman Catholics accept as inspired that Protestants don’t. Maccabees, etc.
So let’s stick with the 27 and the OT too.
So, Let’s go text by text. Which text would like for me to address that you think shows there is scriptural support for either Sunday keeping, or that the ten commandments are void or changed under some sort of “new covenant”? Thank You.
>>>2.
ur eyes?>>“That’s simply not biblical nor true”
Really?
The one thing we know for certain from Church History is that whenever a new doctrine was introduced that was not Scriptural nor received from the Apostolic Tradition, a huge controversy ensued.
So, we know the SDA was formed in the mid 19th century by Ellen White.
where were the “true” Sabbath keeping Christians when the pagans brought the worship of the sun into the “christian” church? who stood up to these pagans and proclaimed Christians need to keep the Sabbath? what were their names, where are their writings?
why did it take 19 centuries before biblical Christianity was restored to the earth? ( just about the same time another false prophet by the name of Joseph Smith was claiming to “restore” the church )
no my friend, Jesus said He would be with us always, even to the end of time. He also said the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.
don’t you realize that the men who set the 27 book NT canon were all sunday worshipping pagans in yo>
Your misunderstanding of scripture has led you to a very dangerous position of blaspheming and insulting the Lord Jesus Christ. He created the sabbath and the holy days. They cannot be "weak and beggarly."
The verses you quote do not refer to "sabbath" or the Lords' Holy Days. There are specific greek words that denote these and they are used in nt scripture. They are NOT used in the verse you quote.
Indeed Paul is referring to sin as bondage.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world.
The sabbath of the Lord is or was NOT an element of the "world". It is a creation of the Lord most high, it is an element of God.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.