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Why I do not believe in the 'Rapture'

Posted on 11/26/2011 3:33:54 PM PST by Iggles Phan

My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.

That's correct.

In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."

... and reverse this 'he' to mean a 'future Antichrist'.

Are you confused?

Is this Jesus Christ or Antichrist?

1. The Historic View.

This view is typified by the 1599 Geneva Bible notes. These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.

1599 Geneva Bible Notes on Daniel 9:27a:

"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."

It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.

2. The Modernist View (Dispensational).

In contrast however, compare this historic view to the Dispensational view typified in the Ryrie Study Notes (1978). Look who the modernists assign to this very same Person in Daniel 9:27a:

"The prince of verse 26, the Antichrist previously introduced in 7:8, 24-26, who will make a pact with many (of the Jewish people) at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (i.e., 3 1/2 years later) Antichrist will break his covenant and desecrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it."

The difference couldn't be farther apart.

Historic Christianity says that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week AT THE CROSS, but Rapture Christianity (Dispensationalism) says that the Devil fulfills it in a 're-built' temple.

Therefore, Dispensationalism is no less than a frontal assault on the Cross of Christ. It reverses Jesus Christ to the Devil. It is malicious and a pernicious doctrine.

Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830. That's why it is a Modernist view. It was invented by JN Darby and popularized by CI Scofield, two con-men to Christianity.

In the 20th century, carpetbaggers such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack (and Rexella) Van Impe, John Hagee and others have made fame and fortune off of this con game. They have marketed this 'Rapture' theology like a cheap box of laundry detergent on TV and radio, and with videos and books.

My hope and prayer is that the Church starts to wake up out of its slumber and starts challenging its pastors, ministries, and teachers. The Cross of Christ is at stake here!

For the Glory of Christ Jesus. Amen.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: darby; dispensationalism; rapture; scofield
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1 posted on 11/26/2011 3:33:56 PM PST by Iggles Phan
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To: sauropod

read


2 posted on 11/26/2011 3:35:28 PM PST by sauropod (Ann Coulter does NOT choose my presidential candidate!)
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To: Iggles Phan

This has been my conclusion as well. Do you have any books or websites you can link so that I can read more on the “historical” view?


3 posted on 11/26/2011 3:36:13 PM PST by Apollo5600 (Cain 2012)
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To: Iggles Phan

Welcome to FR.

Did you post under a different username previously?

I find it odd that a new signer upper thinks he can start posting articles - esp about controversial topics - right away.


4 posted on 11/26/2011 3:37:07 PM PST by sauropod (Ann Coulter does NOT choose my presidential candidate!)
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To: Iggles Phan
The Antichrist sitting in the temple and declaring himself to be "god" is called in Scripture the "Abomination of Desolation".

Was the birth and death of Jesus Christ an abomination?

5 posted on 11/26/2011 3:38:06 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Iggles Phan

Well, welcome to FR.

The one who divides Israel for “peace” won’t be who you would hope.

But definitely don’t listen to Harold Camping whatever one’s viewpoint is.

Enjoy your stay.


6 posted on 11/26/2011 3:38:24 PM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Iggles Phan

You signed up today, to post this? Strange.


7 posted on 11/26/2011 3:39:09 PM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: sauropod

The handle sounds like Rush’s word for the Philadelphia Eagles: Iggles. Iggles Phan = Eagles Fan.


8 posted on 11/26/2011 3:40:40 PM PST by manic4organic (We won. Get over it.)
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To: Iggles Phan

So what your saying is we will live through the tribulation and face God’s wrath upon the earth and its inhabitants?


9 posted on 11/26/2011 3:41:10 PM PST by ColdSteelTalon (Light is fading to shadow, and casting its shroud over all we have known...)
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To: svcw

yep


10 posted on 11/26/2011 3:42:00 PM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

I first came upon this line of thinking in Matthew Henry’s commentaries (very excellent). The argument goes that the abomination of desolation would have been the Roman armies, with their pagan symbols, surrounding the Holy City. Check out Josephus’s War Of the Jews. There were signs and wonders which preceded the destruction of Jerusalem that were quite incredible, so to a certain degree it is reasonable to conclude that scripture either had a double meaning or was referring to that destruction.

Of course, I have not studied any of this for a couple of years.


11 posted on 11/26/2011 3:43:16 PM PST by Apollo5600 (Cain 2012)
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To: Iggles Phan

The term “Rapture” is in the Latin Vulgate, circa 400 AD.

If there is no rapture, then just what is 1 Thessalonians 4:17 about?


12 posted on 11/26/2011 3:44:10 PM PST by MikeSteelBe (Austrian Hitler was as the Halfrican Hitler does.)
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To: Iggles Phan

Wide is the road to destruction.


13 posted on 11/26/2011 3:44:52 PM PST by mountainlion (I am voting for Sarah after getting screwed again by the DC Thugs.)
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To: Iggles Phan

So you signed up in FRee Republic just to post this vanity about your unBiblical beliefs ???

Good luck with the VK...


14 posted on 11/26/2011 3:46:46 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Apollo5600
The Abomination of Desolation doesn't have anything to do with the destruction of Jerusalem.

The phrase “abomination of desolation” refers to Matthew 24:15: “So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand.” This is referring to Daniel 9:27, “He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

15 posted on 11/26/2011 3:47:17 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Iggles Phan
Wasn't this whole Rapture thing first started in the 1970's???
16 posted on 11/26/2011 3:47:41 PM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: Iggles Phan
Never mind - just found "John Nelson Darby first proposed and popularized the pre-tribulation rapture in 1827. "
17 posted on 11/26/2011 3:49:22 PM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: MikeSteelBe

Exactly

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%204:13-17&version=KJV

One can debate the timing, but not the reality.


18 posted on 11/26/2011 3:49:22 PM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Iggles Phan
Well, you like everyone else on earth are given a choice to believe whatever you choose to by the good Lord himself. Just don't be surprised when it doesn't work out the way you choose to believe.
19 posted on 11/26/2011 3:49:33 PM PST by Ron H. (No to Romney, Perry, Gingrich and Huntsmen!)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Don’t use facts - it only confuses


20 posted on 11/26/2011 3:50:30 PM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: sauropod

Ping


21 posted on 11/26/2011 3:53:37 PM PST by huskerjim
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To: Iggles Phan
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have not hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which pre-dates John Darby by a couple thousand years.

Rapture, aka harpazo (original Greek used in the text), aka "violent snatching away".

The Rapture is clearly spelled out in Scripture, and fallen, unredeemed man denies that major doctrine at their own peril.

22 posted on 11/26/2011 3:53:59 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: F15Eagle

You’re right, as usual.


23 posted on 11/26/2011 3:54:58 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Iggles Phan
These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.

1599 Geneva Bible Notes on Daniel 9:27a:

"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."

It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.

I'm sorry to tell you that either
they were wrong or
you have misinterpted them.

Rashi Identifies the person as someone
representing the Roman Empire.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
24 posted on 11/26/2011 3:55:26 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

The one problem I’ve always had with this is the idea that the Temple in Israel would have to be rebuilt. However, even if it is rebuilt, it wouldn’t be a real temple of God. Their sacrifices would be irrelevant. All of it wouldn’t matter. How can one abominate something that is itself an abomination that denies Jesus Christ?


25 posted on 11/26/2011 3:56:48 PM PST by Apollo5600 (Cain 2012)
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To: SkyDancer

Before that it was catching away.


26 posted on 11/26/2011 3:59:46 PM PST by mountainlion (I am voting for Sarah after getting screwed again by the DC Thugs.)
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To: Apollo5600

Read Romans 11 - There is yet another time coming for Israel. That is why the Jew Daniel is told THY people and THY Holy City (paraphrased).

Revelation 11 is the rebuilt temple.

Further Jeremiah 30:7 couldn’t not possibly have occurred in 70 A.D. The Holocaust (unfortunately) was much, much worse. 6 million versus about 1 million Jews killed.


27 posted on 11/26/2011 4:01:12 PM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Iggles Phan

The Rapture already happened. Thing is, they didn’t take any peeple...


28 posted on 11/26/2011 4:01:20 PM PST by bigheadfred (wogga wogga)
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To: Iggles Phan
Well, come on...speak up.


29 posted on 11/26/2011 4:01:44 PM PST by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: Iggles Phan
I noticed several things about your post:

You completely ignore 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4.

You're completely wrong about the nature of the Rapture, something even 1st Century Christians were looking forward to.

You've not bothered to reply to any of the posts directed to you, despite the divisive nature of your first article.

Welcome to FR

30 posted on 11/26/2011 4:03:17 PM PST by garybob (More sweat in training, less blood in combat.)
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To: Apollo5600

THE MILLENNIUM

Loraine Boettner
©1957
Excellent theologian he died in 1940 so not exactly a new ager. The Scofield and Darby mentions on the thread are accurate. One of my favorite post Trib preachers always put it to his audience this way what are the consequences of being in error on this point. If I have erred I fly away with you to a mild rebuke if you are wrong you must without proper preparation endure the worst trial in human history.


31 posted on 11/26/2011 4:04:43 PM PST by scottteng (Tax government employees til they quit and find something useful to do)
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To: Iggles Phan

Another view with a strong biblical foundation that the dispensational view of the rapture is incorrect:

www.prophecyquestions.wordpress.com


32 posted on 11/26/2011 4:07:28 PM PST by grumpa
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To: Apollo5600
Well, there is no Jewish temple in Israel now, and unless we're going to deny Scripture, we know from the book of Daniel that the Antichrist will stand in the temple and declare himself to be "god", so, since there is no temple now, for that prophecy to be fulfilled, and we know it will be fulfilled because God said it will happen, then a temple will have to be rebuilt.

Our opinions about this have absolutely no relevance whatsoever. God still has seven years to deal with His chosen people, and those seven years will, according to what God has told us, include the reestablishment of sacrifices in a temple which will have to be rebuilt.

Those are the facts. And, since hundreds of Biblical prophecies have already been fulfilled, we can know without the slightest doubt that the prophesied temple will be rebuilt, and the Antichrist will stand in that temple and declare himself to be "god".

33 posted on 11/26/2011 4:07:55 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: sauropod

You aren’t the first to disagree with the Bible. Good luck with it.


34 posted on 11/26/2011 4:08:46 PM PST by Bowtie52
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To: Iggles Phan

I agree completely. This is VERY irresponsible teaching and people should run from any church that teaches this as it is clearly not supported by Scripture.


35 posted on 11/26/2011 4:08:59 PM PST by spacejunkie01
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To: buccaneer81; Iggles Phan

What do you want them to say?

“I like my dog. Well
done...”


36 posted on 11/26/2011 4:09:20 PM PST by bigheadfred (wogga wogga)
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To: MikeSteelBe

The word ‘meet’ in that scripture in the Greek means as going out to meet an official and BRINGING HIM BACK.


37 posted on 11/26/2011 4:12:35 PM PST by spacejunkie01
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
Hi Uri'el-2012! Have you seen this?

Blueprints and Computer Animation of the Sanhedrin Chamber of Hewn Stone

We can see what the rebuilt temple is going to look like!

38 posted on 11/26/2011 4:14:09 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: mountainlion

Technology narrows it more and more each day.


39 posted on 11/26/2011 4:14:23 PM PST by enduserindy (Conservative Dead Head)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Thank you for posting. AMEN. There it is plain as day in scripture. What more would anyone need?


40 posted on 11/26/2011 4:18:48 PM PST by faucetman (Just the facts ma'am, just the facts)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
We can see what the rebuilt temple is going to look like!

The one the Mormon's are putting up???

41 posted on 11/26/2011 4:24:07 PM PST by bigheadfred (wogga wogga)
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To: bigheadfred
Oh no. God didn't say anything about the Mormons.

This will be the rebuilt Jewish temple, which will soon be rebuilt and which will fulfill Bible prophecy.

42 posted on 11/26/2011 4:27:14 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
The Antichrist sitting in the temple and declaring himself to be "god" is called in Scripture the "Abomination of Desolation".

All of this was fulfilled in about 70 AD when the Romans installed a stature of Caeser in the Temple and utterly destroyed Jerusalem.

I'm a Catholic. I never understood why anybody would think that this is going to happen in the future when it was already fulfilled in antiquity. It also goes with Christ's own prediction of the same events. Daniel and Jesus predict the same event that happened in about 70 AD. That's amazing, and it's a cause for great wonder. Why in the world do we need to project that into some imaginary future when we have the glory of the historical proof of prophecy?

The author of this article is correct - dispensationalism is a come-lately reading of the Bible. Nobody read the Bible like that before. It's utterly foreign to Holy Tradition. To read it in such a way would require one to reject Tradition utterly and to assume that the Spirit was not with the Church for preceding 1800 or so years which would directly contradict the promise that Christ will always be with us and that the Spirit will lead us to all truth.

It's a terrible distraction, and frankly it's embarrassing for us more traditional Christians. I mean, Hal Lindsay says that the metal insects in Revelation are Soviet Helicopters. How much more "out there" can one really get? I wish they'd stop.

43 posted on 11/26/2011 4:27:29 PM PST by Gluteus Maximus
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To: Iggles Phan

One post and then a vanity! Oh this is going to be good.


44 posted on 11/26/2011 4:28:28 PM PST by CynicalBear
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THX 1138


45 posted on 11/26/2011 4:31:27 PM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: Iggles Phan

I believe in Jesus and I put my life in His hands.

Aside from that, it doesn’t much matter how God carries out His dispensation. It will all work out.


46 posted on 11/26/2011 4:31:34 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: Gluteus Maximus
I mean, Hal Lindsay says that the metal insects in Revelation are Soviet Helicopters. How much more "out there" can one really get? I wish they'd stop.

It sells books and gets you on "Coast To Coast AM." Follow the money.

47 posted on 11/26/2011 4:31:59 PM PST by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: Gluteus Maximus
Really? Did the Romans confirm a seven-year peace contract between Israel and the nations?

Because that is part of the Daniel prophecy, as I'm sure you know. God says that the man who confirms a seven-year peace contract with Israel will be the one who stands in the temple and declares himself to be "god". Also, the Scripture makes reference to a "he", not a nation or a kingdom, so we'll need the name of the "he" in the Roman empire that confirmed a seven-year peace contract with Israel.

Can you give me any independent historical record that verifies that the Romans confirmed a specific, seven-year peace contract with Israel in 70AD?

48 posted on 11/26/2011 4:33:41 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Apollo5600; Iggles Phan
Do you have any books or websites you can link so that I can read more on the “historical” view?

Technically, the "historical view" has all the prophecies up to and in some heretical versions, including, the Parousia. This view was rather popular for most of the Church Age but has fallen out of favor for the Post Millennial view which borrows heavily from the "historical" view.

An excellent author who gives names, dates and places to the OT prophecies is a gentleman named Isaac Newton who also wrote "Observations on Daniel and The Apocalypse of St. John". While he wrote far more on theological matters, the secular world only recognizes him for his mathematics and scientific articles (outside his favorite hobby alchemy).

Gary DeMar has pretty much taken up the role these days as the apologist for Post Millennialism, which while far more faithful to Scripture than pre-millennial pre-tribulation eschatology, has its own problems. DeMar, in one of his books has a chapter on the 70 weeks of Daniel and shows, from historical documents, how the Reformed view has long been held as orthodox while this insanity of the Dispensational camp is new and heretical in its treatment of the OT prophecies.

If you would rather hear lectures on Realized Millennial thought, there is always Kim Riddlebarger, a man who came out of Dispensationalism and now fully embraces what is called "Amillennialism".

Its an investment in time, but well worth it.

49 posted on 11/26/2011 4:33:53 PM PST by The Theophilus (Obama's Key to win 2012: Ban Haloperidol)
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To: Apollo5600

***The argument goes that the abomination of desolation would have been the Roman armies, with their pagan symbols, surrounding the Holy City. Check out Josephus’s War Of the Jews.***

Let’s look at what the various MARGIN NOTES say in the KJV.

1611 KJV has PRINCE with a capitol P in Dan 9:..And the people of the Prince that shall come...

All the later KJVs have “prince”.
verse 27: Margin note...with the abominable armies.

English Oxford KJV
Dan 9:26 Margin note; Or, and the Jews they shall be no more his people.

And the people of the prince (small ‘p’)that shall come...or And the prince’s (Messiah’s) future people.

Verse 27:And for the overspreading of abominations...Margin Notes: OR and upon the battlements shall be the idols of the desolator....with the abominable armies.

Cambridge KJV does not have the above margin notes.

Collins & Sons KJV (Now WORLD BIBLE) same notes as the Oxford bible.


50 posted on 11/26/2011 4:36:09 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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