Following the Truth: Satan’s Attack On The Church – What You Can Do! (Catholic or Open)

CatholicLane.com ^ | Feb 22, 2011 | Gary Zimak

[raygunfan]

jack, even protestant theologians, well versed in all aspects of greek, as, realize what the text means....

R.T. France says this in his commentary on Matthew, “Verses 17 through 19 are addressed to Peter and have been regarded by some as a late addition to support an early claim to the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Whether or not they give any such support, there is no textual evidence for their addition to the gospel after its original composition, and the strongly Semitic or Jewish character of the language throughout these verses point to a relatively early origin in a Palestinian environment.” What is France saying? Well, many scholars have suggested that Jesus could not have given this gift to Peter. Jesus could not have given this original saying. Why? Because many scholars don’t believe that Jesus foresaw the building of the Church. They think that all of these sayings of Jesus concerning the Church were added later by the Church to support whatever had happened to the Church.

Dr. France says, “That’s just not tenable.” When you study this you realize that all of the evidence in the text shows that this is one of the original sayings of Jesus. He goes on to say, “Jesus’ beatitude of Peter or His blessing is given to Peter alone. The other disciples may have shared his insight but Peter, characteristically expressed it. Matthew often illustrates Peter’s place at the head of the disciples’ group. He was the spokesman, the pioneer, the natural leader.” He goes on to talk about how Peter is referenced to the Rock. France says, “It describes not so much Peter’s character, that is the Rock. He did not prove to be rock-like in terms of stability or reliability but rather the name Rock or Peter points to his function as the foundation stone of Jesus’ Church.”

RT France continues: The term Peter, Rock, points to Simon and not his character because he could be very unstable, but rather his official function as the foundation stone of Jesus’ Church. The word-play is unmistakable.” He says, “It is only Protestant over-reaction to the Roman Catholic claim, of course, which has no foundation in the text, that what is here said of Peter applies also to the later Bishops of Rome.”

W. F. Albright, in his Anchor Bible Commentary on Matthew. “Peter as the Rock will be the foundation of the future community, the church. Jesus here uses Aramaic and so only the Aramaic word which would serve His purpose. In view of the background in verse 19, one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as the faith or the confession of Peter.”

He continues on: “Isaiah 22, verse 15, undoubtedly lies behind this saying of Jesus. The keys are the symbol of authority and Father Roland DeVoe rightly sees here the same authority vested in the vicar, the master of the house, the chamberlain of the royal household in ancient Israel. In Isaiah 22 Eliakim is described as having the same authority.”

If you need more history lessons, even from your own protestant (sorry, no google), let me know.

[raygunfan]

jack, even protestant theologians, well versed in all aspects of greek, as, realize what the text means....

R.T. France says this in his commentary on Matthew, “Verses 17 through 19 are addressed to Peter and have been regarded by some as a late addition to support an early claim to the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Whether or not they give any such support, there is no textual evidence for their addition to the gospel after its original composition, and the strongly Semitic or Jewish character of the language throughout these verses point to a relatively early origin in a Palestinian environment.” What is France saying? Well, many scholars have suggested that Jesus could not have given this gift to Peter. Jesus could not have given this original saying. Why? Because many scholars don’t believe that Jesus foresaw the building of the Church. They think that all of these sayings of Jesus concerning the Church were added later by the Church to support whatever had happened to the Church.

Dr. France says, “That’s just not tenable.” When you study this you realize that all of the evidence in the text shows that this is one of the original sayings of Jesus. He goes on to say, “Jesus’ beatitude of Peter or His blessing is given to Peter alone. The other disciples may have shared his insight but Peter, characteristically expressed it. Matthew often illustrates Peter’s place at the head of the disciples’ group. He was the spokesman, the pioneer, the natural leader.” He goes on to talk about how Peter is referenced to the Rock. France says, “It describes not so much Peter’s character, that is the Rock. He did not prove to be rock-like in terms of stability or reliability but rather the name Rock or Peter points to his function as the foundation stone of Jesus’ Church.”

RT France continues: The term Peter, Rock, points to Simon and not his character because he could be very unstable, but rather his official function as the foundation stone of Jesus’ Church. The word-play is unmistakable.” He says, “It is only Protestant over-reaction to the Roman Catholic claim, of course, which has no foundation in the text, that what is here said of Peter applies also to the later Bishops of Rome.”

W. F. Albright, in his Anchor Bible Commentary on Matthew. “Peter as the Rock will be the foundation of the future community, the church. Jesus here uses Aramaic and so only the Aramaic word which would serve His purpose. In view of the background in verse 19, one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as the faith or the confession of Peter.”

He continues on: “Isaiah 22, verse 15, undoubtedly lies behind this saying of Jesus. The keys are the symbol of authority and Father Roland DeVoe rightly sees here the same authority vested in the vicar, the master of the house, the chamberlain of the royal household in ancient Israel. In Isaiah 22 Eliakim is described as having the same authority.”

If you need more history lessons, even from your own protestants (sorry, no google), let me know.

[Jack of all Trades]

Thanks, I’m OK, have a great day.

[raygunfan]

you too, merry christmas

[The Barrister]

I have to concur with the comments regarding criticizing the clergy. I understand where you were going, and it's a fair statement, but that comment misses the mark. We criticize precisely because the clergy failed to follow Christ. By their actions these clergy have heaped far more criticism on themselves AND the Church than we can ever do by our words. If people perceive us as criticzing Christ, that can't be helped. 'Tis better to publicly trim the dead branches than let the entire tree die.

[The Barrister]

Yes so.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/peter-the-rock

[schmootman]

The American bishops (with a few exceptions) have been in de facto schism for 50 years. That couldn’t have happened without the knowledge and consent of the laity. So we must pray for both clergy and laity, and we must call out the bishops’ transgressions when necessary. For example, I still am absolutely shocked that more Catholics aren’t raising the alarm about Catholic Campaign for Human Development. The bishops are getting away with spending millions on leftist, anti-Catholic causes and few lay people seem to care. http://www.reformcchdnow.com/

[Jack of all Trades]

Thanks, I’ll take my chances with Jesus as the corner stone, as Peter himself described. All believers are the priesthood, and the Holy Spirit is the infallible guide.

[Heart-Rest]

Jack, sometimes the anti-Catholic-Church explanation for the Greek words used for "rock" in Matthew 16:18 is that two different Greek terms are used there, "Petros" and "petra". However, the original words spoken by Jesus would have been spoken by Our Lord using the "Aramaic" language, where there are not two separate terms for "rock" like that, only one -- "Kepha". (He would have said, "You are Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build my Church".)

I would recommend a great book that I've found very helpful myself in my own faith journey, called "Catholicism and Fundamentalism - The Attack on 'Romanism' by 'Bible Christians'", by Karl Keating. (See Chapter 17 on "Peter and the Papacy".)

Best wishes.

[yldstrk]

You said it, Your Honor.

[Heart-Rest]

Thanks for posting this interesting article.

Most reliable sources cite that less than 1% of Catholic priests worldwide have credible "sexual predator" claims against them. That is roughly the same percentage of "bad" priests in the world as the numerical percentage Judas Iscariot (who Jesus also called) was to all the 12 apostles.

[yldstrk]

The evil spirits are everywhere and those who say stupidity such as “It’s all good” are Satan’s personal favorites. When people started to ignore evil or accept evil under the veil of “tolerance”, things got very dangerous for the righteous and the good.

Yes, there is a right and a wrong and being righteous is good.

When those dopey “philosophers” eg Emmanuel Kant started that Beyond Good and Evil garbage, they were being used as Satan’s tools

[Heart-Rest]

oooops...

I should have read the article at your link before my post "29"...

[Country Gal]

Regardless of what denomination it is, when a clergy of the Christian faith does something horribly immoral, it hurts all of us Christians.

God bless you and may He comfort you in His real and true presence. Even though I’m not Catholic, I hurt for my Catholic brothers and sisters in the faith over this.

[Heart-Rest]

Thanks Country Girl.

God bless and comfort you too.

I agree that these kinds of things are very sad and painful, no matter what individual is doing them, or what organization they belong to.

I believe that some day all these kinds of horrors will completely end everywhere, in all organizations.

Take care.

[LomanBill]

"...who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world, and through all time;"

 

"I HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD ETERNAL HOSTILITY TO EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY OVER THE MIND OF MAN"

--The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom
--Thomas Jefferson, 1786

http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/vaact.html

 

[Campion]

We must also keep in mind that when we criticize the Church (or her clergy), we criticize Christ.

I think Gary is seriously wrong here. While there's probably a sense in which it's wrong to criticize the church per se, it certainly isn't wrong to criticize particular members of the clergy when correction is warranted. In fact, it may be our duty as confirmed Catholics to do so in some circumstances.

It's rather odd that Gary cites St. Paul's conversion as his prooftext, because the same St. Paul went on to criticize St. Peter "to his face" for refusing table fellowship to Gentile believers in order to placate Jewish ones -- not only that, but he then goes on to recount the incident in the pages of Scripture (Galatians ch 2)!

I'm also reminded of St. Catherine of Siena who -- very respectfully and lovingly, but also very clearly -- told the Pope of her time that he belonged in Rome, not Avignon. She was neither a cleric nor even especially very educated. She was, however, right.

[johngrace]

Matthew Chapter 16

18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. [Return to Original Document]

Parallel

RSV 18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

NRSV 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

Douay 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. KJV 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

WEB 18 I also tell you that you are Peter,{Peter's name, Petros in Greek, is the word for a specific rock or stone.} and on this rock{Greek, petra, a rock mass or bedrock.} I will build my assembly, and the gates of Hades{or, Hell} will not prevail against it.

ESV 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

NASB 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

NIV 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

YOUNG 18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

Greek 18: kagw <2504> de <1161> {AND I ALSO} soi <4671> {TO THEE} legw <3004> (5719) {SAY,} oti <3754> {THAT} su <4771> {THOU} ei <1488> (5748) {ART} petroV <4074> {PETER,} kai <2532> {AND} epi <1909> {ON} tauth <3778> th <3588> {THIS} petra <4073> {ROCK} oikodomhsw <3618> (5692) {I WILL BUILD} mou <3450> thn <3588> {MY} ekklhsian <1577> {ASSEMBLY,} kai <2532> {AND} pulai <4439> {GATES} adou <86> ou <3756> {OF HADES} katiscusousin <2729> (5692) {SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST} authV <846> {IT.}

Vulgate 18 et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversum eam

ASV 18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Darby 18And *I* also, I say unto thee that *thou* art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it.

NKJV 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Other Related Passages

Matthew 4 18: As he walked by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon who is called Peter and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen.

Matthew 11 23: And you, Caper'na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

[raygunfan]

yes, and peter means ‘rock’, got it....

[Syncro]

We must also keep in mind that when we criticize the Church (or her clergy), we criticize Christ. 

The Church is not Christ, it is the bride of Christ

The Church is make up of every single Christian in the world.

The Church meaning in the quote, is the Catholic church.

Which is make up of infallible human beings.

Including the clergy.

We should not be prevented from criticizing either a denomination or those in the denomination, clergy or lay people.

In fact in scripture we are admonished to do so.

It's my understanding that it is Catholic doctrine that every Christian in the world must "come back" to the Mother (Catholic) Church in order to be in God's good graces. (The Mormons have a similar belief, that all must be Mormons to be saved)

There are many Christians that have never been in the Catholic church, so of course cannot come back to it.

There is only one Christian church, as I said above, which is made up of all believers.

One Church, many denominations, of which Catholicism is one of many.

All Christian denominations.