Posted on 12/06/2011 6:06:40 AM PST by Colofornian
A lot of Mormons are torn and ambivalent over their exact beliefs about God, the Trinity, the Godhead, the worship of Jesus, men becoming gods, etc. What they simply wind up doing is acquiescing to whatever their current leaders say.
Hence, Mormons are really all over the board (surprisingly) on such basic matters as "how many gods do you worship?" I've encountered Mormons on FR who insist they worship one God, and yet when you ask them if they worship Jesus -- as Mormon 7:7 and several other passages in the Book of Mormon say (2 Nephi 25:29; 4 Nephi 4:37; 3 Nephi 11:17; 3 Nephi 17:10), they suddenly say "yes" or stop conversing with you.
Why?
Because they count Jesus as a second, separate god than elohim. But when they do that, and they say they worship both, then they worship two gods. And Mormon 7:7 says to worship the Holy Spirit. That makes for a three-god worship for Mormons.
Mormons suddenly become very basic math-challenged. For the Christian, no such conflict exists:
1 (the Father)
x 1 (the Son)
x 1 (the Spirit)
= 1...
our Tri-unified God is even exemplified in basic multiplication!
For the Mormon who accepts current teachings found even now on the BYU Web site, it's endless "addition" of adding to the number of gods in the universe:
The great and anticipated climax of the plan is to return to God and become one with Him. Dr. Henry Eyring, an eminent scientist, said: “One other idea that was revolutionary and is still revolutionary is to take away the idea of the limitation that one supposes exists for man. . . . He replaced it with the idea . . . that there is no limit to how high man might go, man the son of God, might go, if he lived the gospel . . . that through the eternities he could go beyond any limit. That great idea is something that can’t help catching hold of our imaginations.”
Source: “Praise To The Man”: A Review Of The Annual Joseph Smith Memorial Sermons
{For those who want to discuss this quote, this excerpt along with the article it was pulled from was posted as a FREEPER thread last night: “Praise To The Man”: A Review Of The Annual Joseph Smith Memorial Sermons [Mormon Merry Smithmas]}
Next post...I'll show how once upon a time in Mormonism, it was all such a simpler time in applying addition and multiplication to Mormon theology/anthropology!
Jack, there's "enough" single-God verse mentions in both the Book of Mormon and Lds Doctrine & Covenants to lull Mormons into a slumber that, they, too, are single-God Christians.
The problem is that Joseph Smith evolved into "multiple-god" Mormonism in the 1840s...and in Mormonism, the latter "revelations" always trump the former ones.
Still, if you go back to Mormonism's origins, what's of interest is that between 1830 and almost mid-way through 1833, Joseph Smith largely stuck with trinitarian beliefs that he inserted into the...
...1830 Book of Mormon,
...1833 Book of Commandments
...and 1835 Doctrine & Covenants
-- although he was also a "modalist" at the time (the belief that the same divine personality reveals himself in 3 venues or "modes").
(I strongly encourage Lds "lurkers" to go back & study their own 1830-1833 "roots" as far as who God is):
Doctrine & Covenants:
As well as those who should come after, who should believe in the gifts and callings of God by the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and Son; which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God. (D&C 20:27-28, 1830)
And the Father and I are one. I am in the Father and the Father in me... (D&C 50:43...1831...Smith copied this from John 10; John 17)
And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one (D&C 93:3, 1833)
...even one in me [Jesus] as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one (D&C 35:2, 1831)
Book of Commandments, 1833 (the original D&C):
Lectures of Faith, Lecture 5, v. 2: And he [Jesus] being the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fulness of the glory of the Father--possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power [singular] over all things: by whom all things were created and made; and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one: The Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power and fullness: Filling all in all--the Son being filled with the fulness of the Mind, glory and power, or, in other words, the Spirit, glory and power of the Father--posessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father--a Mediator for man--being filled with the fulness of the Mind of the Father, or, in other words, the Spirit of the Father... [Note: This was removed from the 1835 D&C...Why?]
Book of Mormon:
Intro: Testimony of Three Witnesses: And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which IS [not ARE] one God.
And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which IS [not ARE] one God. (2 Nephi 31:21)
...the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one...the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. (3 Nephi 11:27,36)
...every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which IS [not ARE] one eternal God... (Alma 11:44)
...given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. (Mormon 7:7: Please note: the original 1830 Book of Mormon had the word "is" prior to one God...BoM editors then changed it to "are"...a "shaking-the-head" kind of thought given that they left other "testimony" untouched -- such as the 3 witnesses -- along with 2 Nephi 31:21 and Alma 11:44)
...there is a true and living God...Is there more than one God? And he answered, No (Alma 11:27-29)
...Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit...and all this, that this man might know that he was God... (Ether 3:17-18)
X
Honestly revolting. I wish you hadn’t posted it. I feel more weight to witness because of it.
In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5, 1844)
Smith's worldview of time as it pertains to the gods: Smith believed in a "beginning" that was operative before the Mormon plan to the create this world. The question becomes, who is the head of the Gods as pertains to this ‘council of gods?
In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
“I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3, 1844)
Whatever is taken by Smith as the ’beginning’, the Alpha point, Smith says god was a man. That he "was once as we are now." We already know from the above quote that the godhead came even after the Mormon god was appointed. The Mormon god was no godhead in the beginning Smith portrays, yet John’s Gospel starts with the Word, Jesus, was with God and was God in the beginning.
“I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the Gods of heaven. '...Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.' If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly. Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)
What's being said here? … The teaching of infinite regression of gods! Smith is claiming that Jesus had a grandpa and a great-grandpa, etc.!
Those are the blasphemies Joseph Smith taught for Mormonism. To revere Smith is to accept those blasphemies because he authored them. To accept those blasphemies is to serve the spirit of antiChrist. So, whom did Joseph Smith work for? Well, lies and heresies and blasphemies arise not from The Holy Spirit, they arise from the father of lies, a murderer fromt he start.
(It looks like it’s past your beddy-bye time...Ni-Ni...don’t let the bed bugs bite)
Good night Fred Phelps.
Short answer? They are all appear so nice and good because they are trying to make the LDS church look good to non members. One thing I heard CONSTANTLY when I was Mormon was “never do anything that would make ‘the church’ look bad”.
Some are really decent folks (who are decent because they believe they are earning godhood) and some (IME many) just appear that way to outsiders when reality in their private lives are very different. Either way, Mormons are spiritually deceived and lost and part of that is believing the silly and false things that they do.
chuckle
We aren’t missing anything dear, except the lies the leadership tells the LDS members. And don’t give me that carp, since I remember all too well that the surface was Christmas, but the focus was the joy of the ‘restoration’ given by JOSEPH SMITH.
Sandy, come to the REAL Jesus, not the fake ‘older brother’ polygamist your church tells you not to pray to. It’s much better over on our side.
Wrong again Sandy. You may not see it as worship but the reverence that the LDS give Joey and the way they talk about him IS worship. Your prophets have claimed that you will need Smith’s permission to enter the CK (the ‘real’ Heaven). They sing songs of praise like “praise to the Man”. No Christian would EVER sing a song like that. I can keep going if you want.
http://blog.mrm.org/2006/01/worship-of-joseph-smith/
http://www.mrm.org/praise-to-the-man
Here are some quotes from your leaders, Sandy. Men you sustain as ‘prophets’...
“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)
“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]” Apostle George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142
“Whosoever... does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist...,” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 176
[There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—”Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
“He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312
“It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,” Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670
“I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, “Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;” if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again.” Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
“You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a God, and also upon Brigham Young, our Governor” Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, p. 88
“It is to be feared that in course of a century, some gifted man like Paul, some splendid orator, who will be able by his eloquence to attract crowds of the thousands who are ever ready to hear, and be carried away by, the sounding brass and tinkling cymbal of sparkling oratory, may command a hearing, may succeed in breathing a new life into this modern Mahometanism, and make the name of the martyred Joseph ring as loud, and stir the souls of men as much, as the mighty name of Christ itself. Sharon, Palmyra, Manchester, Kirtland, Far West, Adam-ondi-Ahman, Ramus. Nauvoo, and the Carthage Jail, may become holy and venerable names, places of classic interest, in another age; like Jerusalem, the Garden of Gethsemane, the Mount of Olives, and Mount Calvary to the Christian, and Mecca and Medina to the Turk.” Brigham Young, History of the Church, Vol. 7, p.40-41
How about some sites that tell the TRUTH about Mormonism...
www.utlm.org
www.mormonoutreach.org
Failure to fully disclose your beliefs Sandy. You are dissembling in order to sound more ‘Christian’.
As a temple Mormon you MUST believe some VERY corny things. Want me to post the endowment ceremony?
And I am sad Sandy that you are apparently can not or unwilling to see the truth about mormonISM. Notice please that these links are lds owned.
http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/24762/Joseph-Smiths-birthday-commemorated.html
PULL QUOTE: we celebrate not only the birth of the Savior but also the birthday of our Prophet Joseph Smith.
http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/56330/Church-History-Museum-celebrates-Joseph-Smiths-birthday.html
PULL QUOTE: The festivities began on Joseph’s birthday, Dec. 23, and will run until Jan. 3.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705379702/Remember-the-Prophet-Joseph-Smiths-birthday.html
PULL QUOTE: As the Doctrine and Covenants affirms, “Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.”
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/600137230/Vermont-group-observing-Joseph-Smiths-birthday.html
OBSERVATION: not even a mention of Jesus Christ
Really? This is from an official lds site.
PULL QUOTE: The festivities began on Joseph’s birthday, Dec. 23, and will run until Jan. 3.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705379702/Remember-the-Prophet-Joseph-Smiths-birthday.html
PULL QUOTE: As the Doctrine and Covenants affirms, “Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.”
Just found this and it horrified me. So Sandy do you bless the name of Joseph Smith?
Song from BYU TV concert Joseph Smith: Blessed Be His Name.
Those Christians here would know that “Blessed be His Name” is the title of a CHRISTIAN praise and worship song (ie to Christ).
BYUtv - Joseph Smith: Blessed Be His Name: Joseph Smith ...
Joseph Smith: Blessed Be His Name Joseph Smith: Blessed Be His Name. 583 Views
byutv.byu.edu/watch/84dc3994-4e9f-4f80-a41d-cce773f625d4
Yes, Sandy that is what lds teaches.
Go to the family search and Jesus is listed in your official ancestry guilds as having more than one wife.
Remember that lds teaches the water to wine miracle was at Jesus’ wedding according to lds teachings.
This is vile. Joseph Smith: Blessed Be His Name: Joseph Smith http://byutv.byu.edu/watch/84dc3994-4e9f-4f80-a41d-cce773f625d4
Sandy this song is vile.
Don’t ever say lds do not worship Smith.
Sandy; if you are not Temple Wothry®, then YOU are missing out of the goodies!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.