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Planet Kolob to Mormons: It’s not our weird beliefs, it’s our credibility
Mormon Matters.org ^ | Jan. 10, 2008 | John Hamer

Posted on 12/13/2011 8:11:29 AM PST by Colofornian

We know there’s a problem. Here’s how the bulk of us as Mormons see the problem:

SYMPTOMS: Americans have an anti-Mormon bias which manifests itself on the right with Evangelicals who call Mormonism “non-Christian” (and who cost Mitt Romney the Iowa Republican Caucus) and on the left with secularists and atheists decrying Mormonism’s foundational stories as an obvious “fraud.”

DIAGNOSIS: Mormons are “persecuted” by non-Mormons for their “weird” beliefs.

RECOMMENDED TREATMENT: De-emphasize (or eliminate) weird beliefs. Explain Mormonism using highly-nuanced language, which we (as Mormons) believe will satisfy non-Mormon ears (“milk before meat”).

We keep going back to the doctor because the symptoms persist. We keep refilling the prescription — and we now seem addicted to the medicine.

Unfortunately, that the diagnosis is wrong. Weird beliefs are not causing the symptoms. In the past generation, America generally has become increasingly tolerant of weird beliefs. America is more broadly pluralistic because of the influx of traditional religions that were previously unrepresented in the US (and therefore are filled with unfamiliar, weird beliefs), e.g., Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims, and also because the rise of indigenous weird beliefs: wicca, neo-paganism, American Buddhism and the various New Age ideas. (Is America ready for a neo-pagan president? No, because the masses of neo-pagans are college kids. Is America ready for a Sikh president? No, because most Sikhs are 1st generation immigrants. Is America ready for a Mormon president? Yes. Mo Udall would have beaten Gerald Ford, if he had bested Jimmy Carter in the 1976 Democratic primaries.) My point is that our society is prepared to be more broadly pluralistic than ever before. The primary component of pluralism is tolerance for our neighbor’s weird beliefs.

If it’s not so-called weird beliefs, what’s the real cause? I believe the cause of the problem is medicine we keep taking and that the underlying and resulting problem we face is credibility. It’s the milk before meat approach itself that undermines Mormon credibility. The examples of how this true problem manifests itself are so numerous — even in the past year alone — it’s hard to pick from among them. Let’s consider just one of 21 Questions Answered About Mormon Faith that the Fox News prepared in conjunction wiht the LDS church’s PR folks:

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe its followers can become “gods and goddesses” after death?

A: We believe that the apostle Peter’s biblical reference to partaking of the divine nature and the apostle Paul’s reference to being ‘joint heirs with Christ’ reflect the intent that children of God should strive to emulate their Heavenly Father in every way. Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. The goal is not to equal them or to achieve parity with them but to imitate and someday acquire their perfect goodness, love and other divine attributes.

Whachama-come again? This is a hefty dose of the medicine of de-emphasizing weird beliefs when speaking to non-Mormons. Can you argue that this bizarre answer is “not false”? Of course! And whenever anyone argues that any one of these medicinal answers is false, apologetic Mormons across the blogosphere will leap into heroic action in the answer’s defense.

And that is the problem! The problem is not whether the medicinal answers can be argued to be “not-false.” The problem is that these answers are not open and forthright, and that they thus lack credbility.

The real problem Mormons face is not that we have weirdness. It’s that we lack credibility.


TOPICS: Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: credibility; inman; lds; mormon; weird
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To: altsehastiin; Colofornian

Nice to see that someone in Obama’s economy can volunteer 10% of their gross income FOR LIFE for the mormon “fire insurance”.


21 posted on 12/13/2011 8:47:20 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (Holy, Holy, Holy..."God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity")
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To: Colofornian
I'm not going to take a position on Mormon vs. traditional Christian beliefs. That's a pretty personal thing.

But the politics are what this forum is all about. And the Mormonism of Romney is, IMHO, a huge burden that will be difficult for him to overcome in this primary election but much more so in a general election.

My rationale is simple: I don't think most Americans really know much about Mormonism's beliefs. They understand that Mormons are generally speaking very good people who take care of themselves without a lot help from society.

But they are learning about Joseph Smith and some of the core Mormon beliefs now and it is hurting Romney in his run for the nomination. Assuming he wins that nomination is there any doubt that the MSM would be giving us daily lessons and not very favorable daily lessons in Mormonism. Their goal: split off the Evangelical vote, get them to stay home and win the election for Obama.

Is there any doubt about this? I don't think so. Obama wold be above the fray and the MSM would carry the water.

22 posted on 12/13/2011 8:49:54 AM PST by InterceptPoint
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To: altsehastiin

After all, mormons as a people seem to be incredibly happy, prosperous and well-adjusted.

- - - - -
I feel for that bit as well. The truth is the complete opposite. I found that out the hard way (see tagline).

But hey, if you want to throw away everything away to follow a false prophet and follow a lot of silly rules and control of your own life, go ahead. That is your right. However, a life in Christ is much better. I take it you are not a Christian then, if you are seriously considering Mormonism.

www.utlm.org


23 posted on 12/13/2011 8:58:48 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".)
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To: Colofornian
Mormons.....the people who march through neighborhoods two by two telling people their religion is "apostate." But of course we should be "tolerant."
24 posted on 12/13/2011 9:00:16 AM PST by TPOOH (I wish I could have been Jerry Reed.)
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To: altsehastiin

[After all, mormons as a people seem to be incredibly happy, prosperous and well-adjusted.]

Actually, there are many who have been crushed by Mormonism. Talk to my jack Mormon boss who has been disowned and is now an atheist. Or the divorced women who was shunned. Or me, who was driven ut of a job by a partner who truly believed he deserved his planet. Or te people of Nevada, who have been run into the ground by Harry reid and like brothers.

In short, not all is as it seems.


25 posted on 12/13/2011 9:02:47 AM PST by FastCoyote (I am intolerant of the intolerable.)
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To: InterceptPoint
Their goal: split off the Evangelical vote, get them to stay home and win the election for Obama.
Is there any doubt about this? I don't think so. Obama wold be above the fray and the MSM would carry the water.

This is what we Flying Inmans have been trying to get across on FR since 2007. This is why the media is pimping Romney...Obama would walk all over him.

26 posted on 12/13/2011 9:13:11 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (Holy, Holy, Holy..."God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity")
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: Colofornian
It’s that we lack credibility.

Uh...

False prophets will tend to cause that problem.

28 posted on 12/13/2011 9:20:57 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
We believe that the apostle Peter’s biblical reference to partaking of the divine nature and the apostle Paul’s reference to being ‘joint heirs with Christ’ reflect the intent that children of God should strive to emulate their Heavenly Father in every way.

Why don't they QUOTE their OWN 'scrfipture'??


The Doctrine and Covenants

Section 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501–7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

 


 

 16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

 17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.

 18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

 19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

 21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

 22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

 23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.

 24This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

 25aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.


29 posted on 12/13/2011 9:22:20 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
Why don't they QUOTE their OWN 'scripture'??

And sing their own hymns?


(click)
Praise to the Man!
 
 
 
Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.


Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.


Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.


30 posted on 12/13/2011 9:23:22 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: altsehastiin; Colofornian

Don’t be taken in by the window dressing.

It will lead to hell.


31 posted on 12/13/2011 9:24:15 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Colofornian
Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Indeed!e MORMONs are the ONLY folks with ONE god that happens to have TWO phyiscal bodies!

--MormonDude(No; I do NOT know why the Holy Ghost hasn't attained one yet...)

32 posted on 12/13/2011 9:25:06 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Indeed!

We MORMONs are the ONLY folks with ONE god that happens to have TWO phyiscal bodies!

--MormonDude(No; I do NOT know why the Holy Ghost hasn't attained one yet...)

33 posted on 12/13/2011 9:25:17 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
The takeaway could be termed "Embrace your inner weirdness."

Another could be "Embrace the Disgrace."

34 posted on 12/13/2011 9:25:24 AM PST by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: altsehastiin
But you’ve really opened my eyes with all your helpful information about mormonism.

We REALLY have to thank the MORMONs; for their penchant for recording EVERYTHING they do.

We don't lay the eggs; we just color them.

35 posted on 12/13/2011 9:27:05 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: laweeks; Saundra Duffy
Their whole religion is a house of cards with their adherents on a quick road to hell if they don't accept Jesus as their ONLY god.

Their own, great Brigham Young said it best:

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)


36 posted on 12/13/2011 9:29:38 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: DannyTN
Their “We are Christians too” is proclaimed simultaneously with Joseph Smith’s vision that all existing Christian denominations were abominations.


Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

37 posted on 12/13/2011 9:31:09 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Hiddigeigei
Weird beliefs (improbable? cultural myths) are an important ingredient of the glue that binds a society, culture, religion or nation together.

But the BIGGY for MORMONs is their highly advanced persecution complex.

38 posted on 12/13/2011 9:33:29 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: altsehastiin; Colofornian

You are already a Mormon so why the post to obfuscate your identity and pretend Colofornian has nearly sinched your decision?

Milk before Meat is one Robert Millets hallmark tactics of dishonesty.


39 posted on 12/13/2011 9:33:48 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: metmom; altsehastiin
Don’t be taken in by the window dressing. It will lead to hell.

(Well, someone who might seriously contemplate Mormonism as a "pathway" isn't exactly in Kansas, anymore...sounds like no yellow brick road even in sight!)

40 posted on 12/13/2011 9:35:34 AM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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