The Virgin Birth! [Lds refrain from repudiating Mormon leaders' comments re: Christ's conception]

Mormon Outreach.org ^ | April 2002 | Rocky Hulse

[Colofornian]

From the article: Only one letter has attempted to repudiate the quotes and that was only for a single source...Mormon Church Prophets and Apostles have denied the virgin birth. This last quote is from the just released issue of the Mormon Church’s official magazine the “Ensign.” The Church teaches one thing in their Sunday School classes and quite another in their history.

Here's a few more Mormon leaders' quotes:

Example: Indeed, some LDS leaders have tried to play it both ways re: describing Mary as a virgin (for example, LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie). Some clearly implied that she wasn’t (Brigham Young)

Example of LDS saying Mary was a virgin: "Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false." (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 822). [A CARM writer’s comment to this was: Let them proclaim it. But quite honestly, I fail to see how the Mormon people can assert that Mary remained a virgin in light of this evidence from their prophets and apostles. I see them saying two different things and backpedaling trying to sound Christian.]

Let’s deal with each of those descriptions separately, shall we?

Did ya'll catch the conception part here being discussed as part of a “normal and natural course of events” process? Was McConkie just making that up out of thin air? No. He was simply repeating what earlier LDS “prophets” have said about this “natural process”:

...same physical sense that any other man begets a child...:

Brigham Young:

“God…created man [as spirit children], as we create our children: for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be.” Journal of Discourses (JoD), vol. 11, p. 122

(OK, Young's quote here = absolute statement that God only has one means of creation, and that the spirit, Jesus, was first “created” in heaven through the same process “as we create our children”).

(Of course, if any poster wants to tell us that they were begotten of their fathers in some other manner that their fathers who ”partook of flesh and blood”--anything other than what Young called a “natural action”--we’ve got listening ears)

“When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it.” (JoD, vol. 4, p. 218, 1857)

What did Brigham mean by "who is the Father?...first of the human family?”

”Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation…Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.” (Millennial Star, Vol. 15, p. 770, 1853)

What other LDS “prophets” embraced Brigham’s “natural process” of begottening?

“…As the horse, the ox, the sheep, and every living creature, including man, propogates its own species & perpetuates its own kind, so does God perpetuate His.” (Lds "prophet" John Taylor, Mediation & Atonement, 1882, p. 165)

What about other LDS apostles? What did they say about this natural process?

"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547.)

I know a lot of folks have seen McConkie quotes on this controversial subject, but not nearly as many have seen this following McConkie excerpt…where McConkie makes sure we otherstand the literalness of what’s he talking about:

“We have spoke PLAINLY of our Lord’s conception in the womb of Mary. I am the son of my father and the father of my sons. They are my sons because they were begotten by me, were conceived by their mother, and came forth from her womb to breathe the breath of mortal life, to dwell for a time and a season among other mortal men. And so it is with the Eternal Father and the mortal birth of the Eternal Son. The Father is a Father is a Father…And the Son is a Son is a Son…a literal, living offspring from an actual Father. God is the Father; Christ is the Son. The one begat the other. Mary provided the womb from which the Spirit Jehovah came forth, tabernacled in clay, as all men are, to dwell among his fellow spirits whose births were brought to pass in like manner. There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord’s coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is that simple. Christ was born of Mary. He is the Son of God—the Only Begotten of the Father. (McConkie, The Promised Messiah, pp. 467-468, 1978 )

[SZonian]

Brigham Young said, "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

Brigham Young also said, "Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51).

Brigham Young said, "When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, 1857, p. 218).

{I really like this next one...}

Joseph Fielding Smith said, "They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible." (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 19).

{Uhm, hello!!?? Alma "said" it.}

Bruce McConkie, who was a member of the First Council of the Seventy stated, "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers," (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547). "And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events,...Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man." (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 742).

Heber C. Kimball who was a member of the first presidency said,"In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it." (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 211).

Now, before anyone argues that the JoD are to be discounted as just the “opinions of men”, read this…

"The Journal of Discourses is a vehicle of doctrine, counsel, and instruction to ALL people, but especially to the Saints. It follows then, then, [sic] that each successive volume is more and more valuable as the Church increases in numbers and importance in the earth." Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. iii (1867) " — Brigham Young

So God had sex with Mary and Jesus was conceived through physical relations according to mormon prophets, apostles and seventy’s. Yet, the BoM [“…the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our [mormon] religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”] says something different, “by the power of the Holy Ghost”. A supposed ancient record translated through the power of God says something completely different than what purported “prophets” of God revealed.

How is that possible? Is the BoM “not translated correctly”?

So, who is right? The BoM, or the “men” of the church? How does a number of their prophets and apostles get to change the entire construct and meaning of Alma 7:10 without changing the BoM to match their teachings?

Did the mormon god “get it wrong”?

[Tennessee Nana]

Bottom line...

The Mormon do not believe Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus..

[Mad Dawg]

Well, there’s a kind of dreadful consistency.

[elcid1970]

As a Catholic, I’m used to being called a Bible-rejecting Mary-worshipping drunk, mainly by predestined Calvinists, but at least my few remaining unpickled brain cells can rebel at the very notion of believing in all this fanciful Mormon poppycock!

Only two more shopping days before Smithmas!

[Colofornian]

Only two more shopping days before Smithmas!

LOL

[Mach9]

This is the SIMPLIFIED version? But I guess that’s what happens when a church, a sect, or an individual (say, Kung) simply refuses to accept traditional tenets. What results is a nonreligion, a belief system that requires less and less belief until there’s no needat all for faith. .

[sr4402]

"As a Catholic, I’m used to being called a"

That is not germane to this thread. Calvinists DO believe in the Virgin Birth. So please stick to the subject of the thread.

[svcw]

Of course lds refrain from mentioning their leaders teachings are that a god and Mary had intercourse.

[allmendream]

No more than Leda was after Zeus in the form of a swan.

Paganism.

Besides, Jesus had to be of the line of David through his earthly father Joseph - how does that work when he is supposedly physically descended from God himself? What is the DNA pattern of God in the flesh?

[hocndoc]

The line goes through the mother in Judaism. Always has. Sort of prophetic, huh?

[allmendream]

I specifically meant the beginning of Matthew where the lineage of Jesus, as foretold, would come through the line of David. This was through Joseph.

This is the genealogy[a] of Jesus the Messiah[b] the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4 Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6 and Jesse the father of King David.

David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.

12 After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,
Abihud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Elihud,
15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

[allmendream]

Amusing to me that the VERY BEGINNING of the New Testament is what I have posted above.

You don’t have to get far into Christian theology before Mormonism has major glaring differences - I mean the very first passage of the very first book of the New Testament....

Sort of jumps out at you in that context, no?

[SENTINEL]

I'll do you one better. The biggest glaring inconsistency with the breakaway LDS sect of Mormonism takes place BEFORE you open the bible, it's when you choose it !

You see God(s) told Joseph Smith not to become a Christian, or use the King James bible because it had been corrupted, and to Translate the Book of Mormon, and re-translate the entire Bible and use them.

Smith founded his own religion, wrote the Book of Mormon and "re-translated" the entire bible as he claimed he was told. He spent several years working on just the bible re-translation.

After Smith's death FLDS/LDS "prophet" Brigham Young declared the entire Joseph Smith Translation (JST) of the bible to be a fraud, so the LDS sect does not use it to this very day.

In review...God(s) told Smith don't join Christians, retranslate the bible, and don't use the KJV. Forward to today...Any LDS sect member will tell you that Smith was a prophet of God(s), they are Christians, they don't use the JST bible, but they use the KJV.

Not only are the wealthy SLC folks not Christians, they are not even mormons after abandoning Joseph Smith's bible translation ! ....And Oh yeah, we should vote for Romney because of a prophecy about a "white horse".

[Springfield Reformer]

As a “predestined Calvinist,” I’ve never called a Catholic a drunk. Furthermore, as a “predestined Calvinist,” I would count it a good day to only be accused of rejecting the Bible, worshiping a mere human, and being a drunk. As horrid as those things are, there are even worse things that can and often have been said against those who hold the grace of God in high regard.

But I seem to remember something Paul said about how love doesn’t even remember the evils done against it. A beneficial amnesia, which would greatly enhance the quality of these discussions if more commonly practiced.

[Venturer]

It isn’t up to me or anyone else to tell Mormons what to believe.
Just as it isn’t up to Mormons to tell me what to believe.

Mormons aren’t trying to kill me behead me or enslave me.

If they believe God came down from heaven as a man and had sex with Mary, that is their problem.

I choose to believe that she was impregnated by the Holy Ghost without carrying out the sex act. Virgin Birth.Virgin till death.

It is a matter of Faith. I believe in the Apostle’s Creed.

[allmendream]

No, you were not directed by God to spread the ‘good news’?

Wouldn’t that be telling Mormons (and others) what to believe?

[Arthur McGowan]

This is a non-issue. What Mormons think or say about the Virgin Birth is totally inconsequential.

Mormonism is not Trinitarian. It is therefore not Christian, because the Trinity is the primordial, fundamental revelation of Christianity. It is more fundamental and more important than any particular aspect of the earthly life of Jesus.

I don’t care what theological views a candidate or a candidate’s church may hold, except insofar as they might reveal what he will do in office. And I ALREADY know what Romney will do in office: Make nice; muddle through; play defense.

[SENTINEL]

"Mormons aren’t trying to kill me behead me or enslave me."

You may be interested to know that FLDS/LDS "prophets" repeatedly taught that beheading was an appropriate punishment for both leaving the cult, questioning the word of the "prophets", marrying a black girl etc.

“I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath [sic] my bowie knife, and conquer or die [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.]. Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet [Voices, generally, ‘go it, go it.’]. If you say it is right, raise your hands [All hands up.]. Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.”
- FLDS/LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 83

“In debate, George A. Smith said imprisonment was better than hanging. “I replied, I was opposed to hanging, even if a man kill another, I WILL SHOOT HIM, OR CUT OFF HIS HEAD, SPILL HIS BLOOD on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God; and if ever I have the privilege of making a law on that subject, I will have it so.”
(History of the Church, by FLDS/LDS "prophet" Joseph Smith, Vol. 5, p. 296

Modern day salt lake sect mormon are justifyably ASHAMED of this and try their best to hide it.

[lupie]

As a “predestined Calvinist,” I’ve never called a Catholic a drunk. Furthermore, as a “predestined Calvinist,” I would count it a good day to only be accused of rejecting the Bible, worshiping a mere human, and being a drunk. As horrid as those things are, there are even worse things that can and often have been said against those who hold the grace of God in high regard.

But I seem to remember something Paul said about how love doesn’t even remember the evils done against it. A beneficial amnesia, which would greatly enhance the quality of these discussions if more commonly practiced.

Very well said. Thank you.