Posted on 12/20/2011 8:45:06 AM PST by SeekAndFind
I understand that you are Catholic. I have no problem with your choice.
I’m not Catholic or Protestant.
Here is how I would answer your concerns.
“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; “
Physical local expression of the Universal Church. A local gathering of those who have received the Gospel of Grace and gather to fulfill the purposes commanded of believers.
“The Church of the apostles was definitely one”
Still is.
“Paul linked this unity to the Church’s common Eucharistic bread”
Still does.
“Jesus had promised at the outset that “there would be one flock, one shepherd” (John 10:16).”
Still is. He is still the Great Shepherd.
“Would Christ establish his Church – to teach the way, the truth – and allow thousands of interpretation as to what is the truth?”
He didn’t. The Gospel of Grace is always the Gospel of Grace.
He is more than able to police His Church - even removing them when necessary - as Revelations shows.
You worry about so much br’er.
I'm just seeking the TRUTH.
You seem comfortable with multiple versions of the truth. I simply can't accept that.
FoF,
I too seek just the truth, which leads me to the simple fact that HE is the TRUTH.
He is also sovereignly in control of His Church. It will not fail. It has
local expressions in places we do not even know - vast underground enclaves
of persecuted believers in muslim countries and in China. He knows them,
is with them, is growing their numbers and is including them in His Universal
Church and in their own local Ekklesia.
His Gospel of Grace and His Word never come back void.
Merry Christmas!
Perfectly said.
What if their own local Ekklesia teaches that Christ is the brother of Satan? Is that OK with you?
<yopios-cultist>
Why are you "in the midst of celebrating" Christ's birth?
Didn't you get the memo? "Christmas" is a pagan / Roman Catholic invention, the baptizing of the pagan feast of Sol Invictus. And even the name is papistical: "Christ-Mass".
In fact, the pagan "other Gospel" preached by Rome is characterized by belief: in Christ-mass, the pagan Trinity, pagan Sunday worship, the pagan celebration of the Easter/Ishtar festival, the pagan divinity-of-Christ Romish dogma, etc., etc., etc.
If you hold to any of these things, you, too, are a pagan, a member of the Roman Catholic institution, founded by the first Pope, Constantine.
</yopios-cultist>
(Just a distillation of the stuff I've "learned" on FR through the years.)
EWTV has the "Saints of China" on every once in a while. The seed of The Word was spread by the Jesuits (Italian, as I recall) and "watered" by their martyr blood.
The Chinese of the Boxer Rebellion murdered so many priests and Chinese Catholics and burned/destroyed many Catholic Churches. The persecution read like a manual from the Bood of Persecutions.
There is NOTHING like martyrdom to foster a faith. That's probably why the Catholic Church is the LARGEST and LONGEST existing institution in human history: 1 billion now under one shepherd, Pope Benedict XVI.
“What if their own local Ekklesia teaches that Christ is the brother of Satan? Is that OK with you? “
You ask the wrong question FRiend.
Obviously, I would consider that to be a false teaching... but ultimately, I am not the Bridegroom, am I?
It is He who alone has the power to keep His bride free of spot or wrinkle.
CHRIST will judge all things. HE has the ability to remove a church from being a church and
Revelations says He has.
I am sure you are willing to trust Him to do exactly as He has promised.
Oh? And just where in Scripture is the justification for the *church* to own land?
We're not to follow Peter either.
Interesting theory, but how does it fare in practice, in reality? Truly believe what about Jesus and salvation and according to whom?
And where do you then go to "take it to the Church"? Take it to "the totality"?
Obviously, I would consider that to be a false teaching... but ultimately, I am not the Bridegroom, am I?
If one decides what is and isn't a false teaching, I think he/she is acting as if he/she is the Church.
I am sure you are willing to trust Him to do exactly as He has promised.
Yes, establish His Church, provide for Her guidance as the pillar and foundation of truth that the gates of Hell will not prevail against.
A real Church with one universal faith. It's quite a different concept that each person determining what is or isn't a true or false teaching.
thanks for your post.
1) Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?
2) Other than the specific command to John to pen the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?
3) Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?
4) Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible? Where did the table of contents come from?
It is “another gospel”. Paul had it right when he told the jailor “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved – and your house”. He didn’t then run through a litany of rules regulations and legalisms.
OK. Making progress. We ruled out the Mormons. (But really not sure why, according to your definition.) 20,000 to go.
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
The "pillar and foundation of truth" is far more than a collection of people with a specific purpose.
So which one is it?
Reminds me of this reading about a different Gospel:
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who 'called you by the Grace of Christ'.... and are turning to a 'different Gospel' - which is really no Gospel at all.
Who has bewitched you?...( Intersting choice of verbage )..... ...Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. - Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law or by believing what you heard?
- After beginning with the Spirit are you trying to attain your goal by human effort?
- Does God give you His Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law or because you believed what you heard? Clearly no one is justified before God by observing the Law,... because The righteous shall live by Faith,.....the Law is not based on faith.
On the contrary....Christ redeemd us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us.......so that we by faith might receive the promise of the Spirit.
If a law could have been given that could impart 'life'...then righteousness would certainly have come by by the law.......BUT......The Scripture declares the whole world is a prisoner of sin...so that what was promised ..being given through faith in Jeus Christ.. might be given to those WHO BELIEVE.
(Galations 1,2,3)
The “church” ie the local gathering of those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Read farther on in that passage and He also says that “where two or three are gathered in my name there will I be also”. He was explaining how to pring an offense up to a person who had offended.
>>Makes no sense whatsoever without the visible Church Christ established with teaching authority, and the power to loose and bind.<<
Again with that loose and bind nonsense from the CC. Jesus was talking about the “where two or three are gathered in my name still at that point. He wasn’t talking about some all encompassing hierarchy nor did He ever.
>>He says “This is” really means, “this represents”, even though the Scripture doesn’t really say that.” So, where can you get a definitive answer to this dispute?<<
Do I really have to re-list everything He said He was? Like a “door” and a “lamb” and “bread”. He also said “He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water”. Do you have water flowing from within you?
>>To which Church do you go?<<
What a silly question. As if Christ’s body can be divided by some human organization. All believers are part of the “body of Christ” the church.
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
The church is the body 'of believers' worldwide.. who adhere to the gospel message of life thru faith IN Christ. It is a matter of who He is and ones faith placed in Him and that relying on Him to do as He says HE will do for our benefit. That's trust in Him.
But a church building/leadership with a "Universal Faith", as you mentioned of the Catholic Church, plays very closely to that of the push for a one world church under the anti-Christ. Might want to re-phrase the verbage.
Excellant responses...I agree.
Paul “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved – and your house”. John These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
>> And where do you then go to "take it to the Church"?<<
Obviously that group of believers who regularly meet in their local group. Jesus did say “where two or three are gathered in my name there will I be also”.
FoF,
You seem so eager to prove something that you aren’t hearing what I am writing to you.
Relax. It’s Christmas season. If you are a Christian, we’re on the same team.
ampu
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