Posted on 12/23/2011 8:28:19 PM PST by bibletruth
“AM,RM, Nuke me if appropriate. Mayberequiredthanksbye.
You just don’t get it, son. I think everyone here understands the redemption story. And it happens in APRIL.
This is DECEMBER.
Birthday. Or when we celebrate it, anyway. Promise of redemption. Joyful.
Sing the joyfull praises... and all of that.
Dude. You got issues.
But I got Jesus. That warm spot I found on the side of that mountain 2 years and 14 days ago.
I didn’t deserve it. I didn’t earn it.
It was a gift.
But I’m danged if I ever want to go at it that way, again.
/johnny “
Pardon me for jumping in here, but I’m reading this thread and I’m confused on why it’s inappropriate to discuss Jesus’ death and resurrection in December. Is this not the central event on the Christian calendar? And is it not tied pretty closely with Jesus’ birth, since his ultimate purpose in being born was to die for our sins? Or are you saying it’s only appropriate to discuss the crucifixion and resurrection in April?
Oh-one other thing, as far as I know, there is no one pointing a gun at your head forcing you to participate in this thread. If you don’t feel like discussing these things right now, there are always other places you can go...
“The deal is not sealed until you stand in the Particular Judgment.”
And this here is the fundamental disagreement between Catholics and Protestants. We (Protestants) believe the deal is sealed when we receive Christ as our Lord and Savior, not on Judgment day.
To put it another way, Bible-believing Christians believe you are justified at the point of receiving Christ, since He already paid the penalty for our sins. Therefore, there is no further need for us to be “purified” in Purgatory or any other place. Once justified, then the sanctification process begins where we grow continually more Christ-like while never fully reaching perfection on this side of Heaven.
Catholics, on the other hand, believe that you must be sanctified (or purified) before being justified. And since in their view only a few people qualify as saints and go straight to Heaven, most will have to spend some time in Purgatory getting fully purified before entering Heaven.
In my view, the belief in Purgatory is unbiblical and runs entirely counter to the fact that Christ paid for our sins IN FULL at the cross. He didn’t almost pay for them, or pay just 90%, he paid them IN FULL. So there is no further need for us to pay for them ourselves.
In addition to all that, the author of this thread brings up a very good biblical proof for direct entry into Heaven with the thief on the cross. This was a wicked person who had received the penalty of death. If anyone would have deserved some time in Purgatory, it would have been this thief. Yet Jesus told him “TODAY, you will be WITH ME in paradise.”
Scripture
I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
Top
II. Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).
1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).
1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.
1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).
1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.
Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.
Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).
Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.
Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.
Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.
Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.
Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.
I believe your post accurately reports what He has provided us in Scripture.
Until the blood of the Cross, humans were not yet sanctified to enter into heaven, but a place had been made for them known as ‘Paradise’ or ‘Abraham’s Bosom’.
Those seen at the Resurrection, (numbered in the hundreds of reports?) (Matt 28:50)
Mat 27:50-53
(50) Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
(51) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
While I do not consider the doctrine of Purgatory to be as assured as others, I can understand how it may be based upon Biblical doctrines.
While Christ died for our sins, we also know we will be tested by fire and all the wood, hay, and stubble, will be burnt up and we will be refined as gold is refined from dross.
Does that process occur after the Rapture prior to the Wedding feast? Or is that a process which must occur prior to our entrance to heaven? To die from the body is to be present with the Lord, so is this another holding pattern until the Final Judgement or at least the bema seat?
I haven’t studied the doctrine that closely before, but can understand how it may have been developed.
I suspect the Scriptural basis relates to passages such as
1Co 3:10-21
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
(18) Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
(19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
(20) And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
(21) Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
We know He will bring Israel back to Him, as tested by the fire, which IMHO refers to the Great Tribulation after the Church Age. I also do not think the Church is that much more savvy and devout than historical Israel and we are likely to lapse just as much, if not more-so than Israel against His Will.
In the eternal Kingdom, and in the resurrection body we no longer have our old sin natures, they have been removed or sanctified at some time. Isn’t Purgatory simply a place where the old sin nature is berned up and removed prior to our entrance to the abode of God for eternity future?
I don’t think anybody questions Christ’s work on the Cross here. Salvation depends upon our faith in Him, so that He then forgives us. This occurs at initial saving faith and also occurs when we sin and return to Him in confession and repentance per 1stJohn 1:9.
Another issue remains regarding the resurrection body, where the corruptible must put on incorruption. Prior to the resurrection body, where are we? Do we have a different interim body, so to speak prior to the Resurrection? Are we resurrected immediately? If immediately, why are the dead raised first at the Rapture?
I’m not defending the doctrine of Purgatory yet, but am simply asking questions which I believe are valid at my stage of doctrinal growth.
Notice "Bodies" not Ghosts or Spirits of the Saints.
Here is an interesting view from Haydock:
Mat 27:50-53 (50) Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. (51) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Ver. 51. The veil of the temple was rent. As there were in the temple two parts of the sanctuary, so there were two veils, or partition walls. The first sanctuary, called the holy, was separated by a veil from that part of the temple called the court of the Israelites. Into this outward sanctuary, called the holy, entered every day the priests that were in office.
The second interior sanctuary, called the holy of holies, was also separated from the outward sanctuary by another veil. And into this holy of holies, no one was to enter except the high priest, and he but once a-year. Both these veils seem to have been rent at Christ's death: and by their being broken down, was signified first, that the ceremonies of the ancient law were to be abolished by the law of Christ; and also that heaven should be open to all. --- The earth quaked. How far this earthquake was extended, is uncertain. --- The rocks were rent, and the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints ... arose.
St. Jerome takes notice, that these saints did not rise with their bodies till after Christ was risen; and so it follows, that going out of the graves, after the resurrection, they came into the holy city, (i.e. into Jerusalem) and appeared to many. (Witham) --- This event was a prophecy of the fatal destruction that was shortly to fall upon the temple; and also, that it should henceforth give place to things more noble and sublime. It likewise shews that greatness of Christ's power. (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxxix.)
Ver. 54. Indeed this was the Son of God. St. Mark says, that when they saw Jesus die in that manner, crying out with a loud voice, which could not be natural, and when they saw the other miracles, they were struck with fear. St. Luke says, (xxiii. 47.) that the centurion glorified God, &c. (Witham) --- It is said that this centurion, being afterwards confirmed in the faith, was honoured with the crown of martyrdom. (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxxix.)
Thanks for the Scriptural references.
Amen! Thank for Sharing on all. It is a belief that we are always learning from each other.
They have always been around, since the first century.
They finally desired so much to read the scriptures and worship God simply and faithfully (with out a lot of trappings devised by men) that they split from the church of that period.
There is only one holy and catholic church and it is made up of all believers/followers of Jesus Christ.
It is not the denominational Catholic church as it is just one of many Christian denominations.
I find it odd that you accept the "third state" where those not condemned to hell waited for the coming of Christ, but you can't accept a place of purification before you enter heaven. Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Two reasons, first because it is true second, because it is in the Bible:
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
Clearly Jesus did not go straight to heaven, he spent some "Time" preaching to those not already in "Hell."
the good thief was under the old covenant — the new was inaugurated only AFTER Christ’s sacrificial death.
“We believe the deal is sealed” — that is not true for all. It would vary between Arminian and Calvinist, Pentecostal, Mennonite, Church of Christ etc.
that's Catholic teaching from the catechism -- we have always believed that Justification is the first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit -- it is not merited, it is not at the end of your sanctification etc.
Also, there is no "place" or "time" of the final stage of sanctification (aka purgatory)All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, through the blood of the lamb -- the "payment" is not relevant here, we are already saved at justification irrespective of the stage of sanctification.
================
Please do note that your post gave an incorrect statement of what I and other Catholics believe. I hope this explains that to you.
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