The three witnesses said they saw the plates, saw the angel, and heard the voice of God commanding them to bear witness. People use the word ‘vision’ in relation to this experience to try and explain it away as being invalid.
Obviously something supernatural was taking place, something out of the ordinary. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Did Peter, James and John really see Elijah and Moses visit Jesus in the Mount of Transfiguration — or is that experience invalid because it was a ‘vision’.
As you read the testimonies of David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, they are as certain of the reality of what they experienced as were Peter, James and John.
Sorry to break it to you Norm, 'vision' was in the words used. For example Martin Harris stated "I never saw the golden plates, only in a visionary or entranced state. . . . . In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates." (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71)
Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith were third cousins and they shared the practice of folk occultism with the rest of their family consisting of peep stones and divining rods. Young spoke in regards to Cowdrey saying "One of the Quorum of the Twelve — a young man full of faith and good works, prayed and the vision of his mind was opened, and the angel of God came and laid the plates before him, and he saw and handled them, and saw the angel." (Journal of Discourses 1860, 7:164)
"“What of the prophet's story about gold plates, and what about his witnesses? Given Brodie's assumptions, was there not deception here, if not collusion? Brodie maintains that the Prophet exercised some mysterious influence upon the witnesses which caused them to see the plates, thus making Joseph Smith once more the perpetrator of a religious fraud. The evidence is extremely contradictory in this area, but there is a possibility that the three witnesses saw the plates in vision only, for Stephen Burnett in a letter written in 1838, a few weeks after the event, described Martin Harris' testimony to this effect: ‘When I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David . . . " (Mormon historian Marvin S. Hill, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought). Hill also stated- "Burnett reported Harris saying that he had ‘hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain." (ibid).
The record is clear - even to mormon historians, they had 'visions' Norm - mormon historian words, not mine. IF the plates were tangible - there would be no need of 'visionary' verbage - let alone "seeing through a mountain".
Obviously something supernatural was taking place, something out of the ordinary. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Just for grins and giggles, lets say something "supernatural" happened - what proof is that it was from "god" Norm - it easily could have been a satanic counterfit. Then again, it proves they had a VISION and didn't actually see physical, tangible plates.
Did Peter, James and John really see Elijah and Moses visit Jesus in the Mount of Transfiguration — or is that experience invalid because it was a ‘vision’.
Did Peter, James or John produce a contradictory account(s) of the event as we have in the bom three witnesses? Were Peter, James and John practicioners of occultic folk magic? People don't need to have a vision or see through a 'spiritual eye' to look at physical objects Norm.
As you read the testimonies of David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, they are as certain of the reality of what they experienced as were Peter, James and John.
Sorry Norm, once again, they repeatedly referred in other testimony as it not being a physical reality, but a visionary experience. Really Norm, why would Smith take them into the deep woods to have an reputed angel show them the plates, when those very same plates were buried in his barn for safe keeping? Here are the words they are recorded as using Norm -
'While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates'
'I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state'
'he only saw the plates with a spiritual eye'
'a visionary experience'
never saw the plates with his natural eyes but only in vision or imagination'
'as shown in the vision'
"I did not see them as I do that pencil case, yet I saw them with the eyes of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me - though at the time, they were covered with a cloth"
What kind of 'reality' is that Norm. No, the fundamental basis - real, physical plates alledgedly buried in a barn versus the experience of Peter, James and John are not compatable - nor is the 'testimony' of the bom witnesses credible. Since their testimony has no basis in physical fact, it proves nothing.