Thank you, Jeff. You indeed show more boldness than the "average Mormon" in at least willing to engage others on these matters. Many past comments & queries of mine extended your way have gone unanswered, but I know your main purpose on these threads isn't to get into extended discussions on these matters.
Hence, if I respond more on this -- re: your next comment...I'll try to limit it to just one final summation.
Your most interesting comments -- and ones that seem to contrast most with Lds "scripture" (Doctrine & Covenants) -- I've taken the liberty to chart below since indeed we're both equally happy to let others read and make their own judgments.
I took this comment from you and segmented it into the chart below:
You talk about people who spoke of Mohammed and Islam back in the 1800s when they had very little knoweldge of them or acquantence and had never traveled there or interfaced with them. These men were not perfect and they had their opinions like we all do on such things, except today we know a lot more...and after 911, for a lot of [people it became more cl;ear, though me and mine knew already and wanted our nation to respond more strongly for several years. [Jeff Head]
So...Let's break down your rather "low" opinion of Lds "apostles" vs. what Mormon "scripture" and doctrine teaches about them.
| Jeff Head's weak apology of why Lds 'Apostles' were so far off-base in summing up Mohammed | A summarized 'Translation' of Jeff Head's bottom-line description of Lds 'apostles' | How does this match Lds 'scriptures' in Doctrine & Covenants or what Lds 'prophets' & 'apostles' describe? |
| "These men were not perfect...today we know a lot more" | Imperfect (in what they taught) | "The duty of...an Apostle is an elder, and it is his calling to....teach, expound, exhort, baptize, and watch over the church;" (D&C 20:38, 42) |
| "These men were not perfect and they had their opinions like we all do on such things, except today we know a lot more" | (False) Opinion Generators | "STATUS OF THE TWELVE AS REVELATORS FOR CHURCH. The Twelve Apostles have been sustained as prophets, seers and revelators ever since the time of the dedication of the Kirtland Temple...The Twelve Apostles may receive revelation to guide them..." (Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:156-157) |
| "You talk about people who spoke of Mohammed and Islam back in the 1800s when they had very little knoweldge of them or acquantence and had never traveled there or interfaced with them." | Theologically, sociologically, culturally, and comparative world-religion illiterates equivalent to their times of knowledge darkness | "The twelve traveling councilors are to be The Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ IN ALL THE WORLD -- thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. And they form a quorum, EQUAL IN AUTHORITY AND POWER TO THE THREE PRESIDENTS..." (Lds "scripture" D&C 107:23-24) |
| "These men were not perfect and they had their opinions like we all do on such things..." | Apparently these Lds 'apostles' were not always or usually guided by the Holy Spirit | "...this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood...And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost. And WHATSOEVER THEY SHALL SPEAK when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord..." (D&C 68:2-4) |
| "You talk about people who spoke of Mohammed and Islam back in the 1800s when they had VERY LITTLE KNOWELDGE of them...These men WERE NOT PERFECT AND THEY HAD THEIR OPINIONS LIKE WE ALL DO on such things..." | Jeff's Bottom-line: Much of what the Lds 'apostles' had to say is not worth heeding...tantamount to reading a Web site opinion forum or letter-to-the-editor page | "And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets AND APOSTLES, SHALL BE CUT OFF FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE." (D&C 1:14) |
Seems to me, Jeff, you are militating vs...
...D&C 1:14,
...D&C 68:2-4,
...D&C 107:23-24...
...as well as the words of Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith.
What's rather interesting then in all of this is that YOUR WORDS and OPINIONS on this matter seem to trump...
...not only Lds "apostles" Parley P. Pratt and George Smith words re: Mohammed...
...but also trumps/sharply counters how the words of Lds "apostles" are to be met...
...instead of being received as ones coming from "revelators," "prophets" and "seers" "equal in authority and power to the three presidents" -- "apostles" whose very job description it is to "teach, expound...and watch over the church" especially "IN ALL THE WORLD"...meaning their authoritative comments supposedly hold no social, geographical, cultural or other world religion boundaries...
...I detect a clear "let's reject the words of Lds 'apostles'" since we now know a lot more "after 911."
Would your bishop countenance these slams vs. Lds "apostles" and the D&C?
They do have their opinions, like we all do. "When moved upon by the Holy Ghost," then their words are taken as the counsel and direction you cite for the church and I agree wholeheartidly with that. When that is the case, the church is informed, policy and instructions are issued and the Church moves along accordingly...and the members get to pray about those actions and then give their commen consent to the decision so rendered.
I've been in the church 41 years, colo, served in bishoprics and numerous other positions. Nothing that I have said is not in keeping with the testimony I have, or the promises and covenants I have made with my Savior.
The position of the Churh has never been that Jospeh Smith would be or is the next Mohammed, that Sharia Law and the basic tennants of Islam are what the LDS people should follow or obey, or that their teachings represent "the truth." Some have indicated that there are good qualities of some Mulsim people who follow good tennants such as being true to their families, being virtuous, helping others, and so forth.
You can look for the good in people, even when the basic tennants underlying thir fundamental philosophy is something like Sharia Law, which they themselves do not follow...and you can reach out to such people. We have many muslims within our own armed forces, and allied to us, who are helping in the fight, and those in our own forces who are loyal Americans.
Sadly, we also have those fundamental/radical infiltrators, steeped in and desiring Sharia Law for the whole earth, who get inside and then reak havoc, as the Sgt on the eve of battle in Iraq who killed a fellow Idahoan that day, and the traitor who took the lives of those personnel at Ft. Hood.
Sadly in each of those cases (and others) there was ample warning, but because of the PC nature of much of the actions toward Islam as a whole, and its fundamental flaws, those warning were ignored and those people who should have been drummed out were left in position to do their harm.
IMHO, organizations like CAIR, and any Mosque that teaches Sharia Law should lose their charitable status, should lose their protection as a religion and be labeled as a seditious enemy entity and treated accordingly. Any Mosque that rejects Sharia LAw should be allowed to continue. But those seeking Sharia Law, which is a political and religious tyranny, are the enemies of the Constitution and the liberty we all cherish, and should be recognized and treated as the enemies they are. If a citrizen then either seditious or traitor, if not a citizen then a out and out enemy.
Having said that, there are millions of muslims fighting against this fundamental basis for Islam all over the world, and dying by the tens of thosuands, and I applaud and encourage those who recognize the evil amongst them and fight it. Perhaps in time, some of those people can be reached and taught the gospel and brough to Jesus Christ.
As you know, they take great risk when they do convert...and yet some do. My son, on his mission several years ago, had just such experiencea with an individual in one city, and with an entire family in another. They are now very devout and faithful followers of Jesus Christ, despite the risks.
Again, the LDS faith is not confederated with or "like" fundamental Islam in the least and recognizes it as a grave threat and has encouraged its members to stand firm in the faith of Christ, and to fight against the radicals.
The Church has also encouraged its members to look for the good in others in all faiths and reach out to them in the hopes of bringing them to Christ. The two do not contradict one another...but they do require good judgement on the part of each of us.
But many young LDS sign up and do fight, and those who have made careers of the military are in the fight to, and many of both of those have re-up'd several times specifically to keep fighting the Jihadists.
I have spoken to those that do whom I come across, and they do so because the nature of the threat is so obvious when they are in those lands fighting it and they do not want it to come here. Sadly, and yet heroically, many of those have shed their blood doing so.
I honor them all, of all denominations, who stand and fight the scurge of fundamental Islam, including the many LDS who do and have done so...and IMHO, so should you and not disparage their faith in Christ and try to marginalize it and demonize it by comparing that very faith to the thing they fight (even if you disagree with the tennants) which is one of the prime motivating factors that leads them to such service, and sacrifice.
Colo, you are clearly very disaffected by the Church, as are many amongst the group you have adopted (ironically) as the flying Inmans. I know you did so because you were called this, apparently by an LDS member...but should I compare you and them to Islam and marginalize you because you have willingly adopted such a name?
No, of course not.
I am sorry for the experiences that you and others have had that resulted in the disaffection you have. Wherever it was wrong in how your were treated , spoken to, or had members, even leaders bahve towards you, I will recognize it as such. Wherever people did not act with the compassion, mercy and understanding of Christ in those dealings, I will stand against it.
But please do not convey those experiences on the Church as a whole or its membership. It is not systemic in the least as my own experience and those of millions of others attest. The same things happens in any congregation or denomoination because we are all sinners, make mistakes, and so in need of the blood of Christ to clean us. Sadly, some (in all denominations) go to church and participate out of social or other reasons not associated with the atonement and redemption of Christ.
well, any Christian church is a hospital for sinner...and not a country club for saints. Sometimes some folks get the two confused.
We cna only pray in all cases that they will turn to Him accept His offering truly in their hearts, and then treat one another accordingly. When you see that happening, you can be a fair judge that Christ is in those folks hearts, when they profess Him and then act as best they can in their daily walk and interaction with others as He would act.
You have the last word...as I am sure you will take it in any case. Will you tear down, attack, and disparage? Or will you accept the olive branch and try and work together politically and in faith with those who should be (and would be) your allies in our desperate struggle to save our nation internally and protect it externally, despite our differences?
Outside of those doctrinal differences, when it comes to liberty, the family, the soveriegnty of our nation, the Constitution, abortion, homosexuality, corruption, the amount of and role of the Federal government, judicial activism, etc., etc. the list goes on and on...we seek and desire the same things for ourselves and families.
I am willing to work with you and all others on those things at any time and in any place.
If you get the time, read the following...it was sincerely and soberly written and represents my feelings about our country, our circumstances, and my faith in our nation and its people.
America at the Crossroads of History
http://www.jeffhead.com/crossroads.htm