Skip to comments.Mormons reject core doctrines
Posted on 02/15/2012 5:09:18 AM PST by Colofornian
Pat Waldron asserts that Mormons are Christians and offers these reasons: First, Mormons call themselves "The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints." Second, Mormon temples contain pictures of Jesus. Third, the Mormon choir will "bring tears to your eyes, if you are a Christian." And, fourth, Mormons are nice people. But these "reasons" are hardly convincing because they deal only with superficial appearances.
A more robust analysis reveals that Mormons reject absolutely essential Biblical beliefs that Christians have held for centuries. First, Mormons reject the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Christians believe that there is one God and only one God, and that he exists eternally as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who are each equally and fully God.
Second, related to the first, Mormons reject the Christian belief that Jesus is uncreated and eternal. In contrast, Mormons assert that Jesus is a created being. The official Mormon website states that Jesus "was the first spirit to be created."
Third, Mormons reject the Christian belief that there is only one god. In contrast, the official Mormon website states "Mormons do teach there are three Gods." Mormons believe in three gods. Christians are monotheists.
In summary, Mormons reject three essential Christian doctrines firmly held by Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox Christians. We would do well to follow the words of Jesus when he said, "Stop judging by mere appearances and make a right judgment."
Get used to it. This is what it'll be 24/7...
Why? We can thank Mittens in the news 24/7 & Mormons who aren't satisfied just to be Mormons...instead, they want to co-opt the Christian brand as their own.
Muslims don't try to be Christians; Jews don't want to be Christians; Scientologists are "clear" and resolute to be Scientologists? Mormons? Whereas once upon a time, they were happy to label Christians and Christianity the "church of the devil," creedally abominable and apostate, now they can't stop lusting after the title.
Yes...the Mormon Jesus was apparently a "creature" of some sorts before He was a 'Creator.' Mormonism claims that we all essentially started off as some sort of "spirit-goo" or "intelligence-goo"...Joseph Smith came up with this on May 6, 1833 in a "revelation":
"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence...was not created or made, neither indeed can be...man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element [are] inseparably connected..." (Lds Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33)
Hence...nobody is more or less eternal than the Mormon jesus or the Mormon gods!
In contrast, the Bible assigns Jesus as being the Creator of All Things & All Beings -- whereas the Mormon "Jesus" is Simply a spirit Creature who then "evolved" as an offspring of Kolobian parents.
Compare that to the Jesus of the Bible Who created ALL things--including all angels...including even Lucifer (see Heb 1; John 1; Col. 1:16; see even D&C 93:9-10).
The Mormon Jesus is a 'Saved Being': "Christ is a saved being (lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257)
Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a saved being... (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234)
Please also see...
* McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation)
* McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72
Sorry...not even close...the real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).
Well, first of all, Mormons believe in more than three gods. Joseph Smith claimed a council of gods appointed their god to be god of this world. And then that god had a goddess-wife.
And then from there, the Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!)
What did Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, teach about their god being appointed by other gods?
Smith excerpt #1:
In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5, 1844)
Smith excerpt #2:
In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
Hey...IF the gods appointed ONE god for the Mormon, why do they have three plus?
Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie in his Mormon Doctrine book: "Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these THREE are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition)
When it comes to business dealings, lots of Mormons are not honest.
Basic Question: How do we know that the Mormon god is different from the god of the Bible?
(1) Mormon "apostles" themselves confirm this:
One of the leading regarded "thinkers" among Lds "apostles" of history was James Talmage. One of his well-read books was The Articles of Faith. Here's what he had to say:
"We affirm that to deny the materiality of God's person is to deny God; for a thing without parts has no whole, and an immaterial body cannot exist. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims against the incomprehensible God, devoid of 'body, parts, or passions,' as a thing impossible of existence..." (The Articles of Faith, p. 48 -- published by The Church of JC of Latter-day Saints, 1987)
This isn't "ancient" doctrine. The official Lds church republished this in 1987! Talmage claims there is no such Spirit-God...he "cannot exist...a thing impossible of existence" per the Mormon church!
They openly deny this Spirit-God!
That only means one thing! (They have distinct gods!)
Yet what did Jesus say? 24 God IS SPIRIT, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)
How many prefer Jesus' word over made-up Mormon mumbo-jumbo?
(2) Whereas apparently the Mormon god knows a LOT of other gods, the prophet Isaiah of the Bible did not. In fact, may I "sweetly" challenge Lds to go to the Bible they say they adhere to and meditate day and night upon Isaiah 43, Isaiah 44, and Isaiah 45? Isaiah reminds us, as if the verses below weren't enough, in 45:14: "'Surely God is with you, and there is NO OTHER; there is NO OTHER GOD.'"]
Now, were I to impose Mormon theology upon the prophet Isaiah's words, I'd have to change verses to read as follows:
* "I am the Lord, and there are others; apart from me there are multiples of gods." (A perversion of Is. 45:5)
* "I am the Lord, who has organized all things, who with a council of gods stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth with my fellow divine family members." (A twisting of Is. 44:24)
* "It is us who made the earth, and created mankind upon it. Our own hands stretched out the heavens; we marshaled their starry hosts." (A pretzel version of Is. 45:12)
* "I am the first, well almost, and I am certainly not the last; there are other gods all around me." (More twisting - this time of Is. 44:6)
*"Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are our witnesses. Are there gods beside me? Yes, I know plenty." (Utter perversion of Is. 44:8)
*"Before me generations of gods were formed, and so shall it be evermore happily ever after." (Ah, again, the Mormon "gospel" twisted version of Is. 43:10)
How else can we tell that the Mormon god is distinct from THE God of the Bible?
(3) LDS "Apostle" Bruce McConkie wrote, "The Father is a glorified, perfected resurrected, exalted man who worked out his own salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pg. 64).
As somebody once pointed out...Notice McConkie's use of the word "resurrected" and the phrase, "worked out his salvation." Only those who die can be resurrected, and only those who are lost need salvation.
Mormon leaders have taught that Heavenly Father needed "salvation!" And, since death came due to sin (either your own, or in Jesus' case, someone else's), whose sin caused Heavenly Father to die, Mormons? Whose sin was around that prompted his death? His own?
Also, please note another aspect of this Lds "apostle's" claim: He said Heavenly Father is a "perfected...exalted man." Interesting. Why did He say "perfected" -- vs. "perfect? This Lds "apostle" claimed Heavenly Father needed a spiritual makeover and needed to be perfectED!!!
(I guess that shows you what kind of sinner-saved god Mormons REALLY embrace!!!)
(4) What other Lds general authority comment supports the notion that Lds worship a sinner-saved god?
Well, after B.H. Roberts, the next "deep theologian" to fill the ranks of Mormonism was Lds "apostle" James E. Talmage.
Here's how Talmage weighed in on this: "...but though the Son is glorified with the glory of the Father, you can't change the fact that He is the Son of that Father,
and that Father,
the Eternal Father,
the Father of Jesus Christ,
the Father of His spirit
and the Father of His body,
was once a Man,
and has progressed,
not by any favor but by the right of CONQUEST OVER SIN,
and over death,
to His present position of priesthood and power,
of Godship and Godliness,
as the Supreme Being whom we all profess to worship"
(James E. Talmage, Conference Reports, April 1915, p. 123).
So there ya go! Talmage says the Mormon god "progressed...to His present position of...Godship". He got the "godship" job! And how did he manage that? Well he won via a "Conquest over sin"!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and death)
Hmmm...the Mormon elohim was a sinner!!!! (says a prominent Lds "apostle" still repeatedly cited by the Mormon church and by Mormon leaders)
Per the Mormon Journal of Discourses: "God our Heavenly Father was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we are, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is" (Lds "apostle" Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses 1:123).
So. Mormon leaders have stated that Elohim (God the Father), as a mortal on some distant planet similar to Earth, went through the same struggles as present-day humans in order to obtain his Godhood. In the words of LDS Apostle Orson Hyde, "God our Heavenly Father was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we are," HYDE is claiming GOD (our Heavenly Father) was mortal like we are. To be consistent, HYDE is claiming mortality for GOD, so it would have to include "a sinful nature".
Well, again, we know from history that mortality was provoked by things having to do with a tree. In the book of Genesis, it was rebellion (sin) by picking fruit from a forbidden tree. And for Jesus, it was donning a tree (the cross) to pay for the fruit of Adam & Eve's sin passed down throughout mankind. So sin was linked to mortality somehow -- either thru direct sin or indirectly taking on the sin of others.
So, again, if the Mormon elohim was mortal, why? Was it his sin -- or that of another?
Other Lds leaders even elaborated a bit beyond that: "The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church. How do you feel, knowing that God, through His own experience, 'knows all that we know regarding the toils [and] sufferings' of mortality?" (Brigham Young, Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, p. 34, brackets in original)
So Brigham claimed the Mormon god knows all about the "toils & sufferings" of mortality from firsthand experience!!!
And another Lds "apostle," Orson Whitney, emphasized that "Mormonism teaches that God was once just like ourselves; that the eternal part of Him was enshrined in mortal flesh, subject to mortal ills and earthly pains and toils." (Orson F. Whitney, May 6, 1892, Collected Discourses 3:45)
So perhaps the "best" way for us to describe the Mormon god, per their "apostles," is to first ask Mormons to describe themselves, since Whitney says he "was once JUST LIKE OURSELVES!" That not only includes mortal flesh, but mortal ills. (And guess what prompted mortal ills?) That's right, sin.
(5) Finally, consider what two other Lds "apostles" claimed:
"God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degress of advancement" (John A. Witdsoe, Rational Theololgy, 1915, p. 61)
And: "Gods, angels, and men are all of one species, one race, one great family, widely diffused among the planetary systems as colonies, kingdoms, nations, etc." (Parley P. Pratt, The Key to the Science of Theology, 1978, p. 21)
Parley P. Pratt, btw, is Mitt Romney's G-G grandfather! (And Romney says he is sticking to the "faith of his fathers!")
So...if ya wanna know the gods of Mitt Romney & his fellow Mormons...well...if you saw aliens from another planet, and one said they were humanoid just like us, and another said, "Yeah, I'm humanoid, too. But I'm also divine." Well, there's your Mormon master race! Aliens from heavens, Mormons all of them, some claiming to be man-made gods, and others claiming to be future man-made gods.
The Mormon "apostles" -- the entire bunch -- are whacko heretics!
Like all cults, their deepest hunger is for legitimacy! And by co-opting Christianity, they believe they can get it.
He called it The World Wide Church Of God. Later, after his death, various church administrators regularized their beliefs along more traditional Christian lines and it is now called Grace Communion International (GCI).
They actually weren't the first such group to do that. We have the case of NUMEROUS Mormon groups without any affiliation to Latter Day Saints returning to their foundations in Christianity ~ goes on all the time. Some of them keep the Mormon titles for church officers, but many don't.
Then there's the far older Apostolic Charismatic Church of the First Born ~ just all over the West. Numbers of their congregations are easily confounded with Mormons ~ but for others the consumption of peyote sets them apart from just about everybody except Native American Religion (which has had a crossover membership situation with COTFB for years and years).
Some of the COTFB actually use the Book of Mormon, but they reject the Doctrines and Covenants as well as any authority over doctrine claimed by the LDS. Others never use the Book of Mormon but frequently have readily verified genealogies that show their close relationship to many Mormons.
Since most of the COTFB don't believe in doctors they have North America's highest infant mortality rate. Consequently they attract the attention of coroners and sheriffs ~ and downstream, frequently, doctors when outsiders try to save their infants and young children.
These guys make LDS Mormons look like ordinary folk in comparison. Their graveyards range from those with no markings at all to those that look medieval ~ packed tightly with monuments to infants who died early.
Things are looking up. The crowd who moved to Alaska in the 1920s and 1930s appear to have followed the path of the Worldwide Church of God and actually come around to Christian Orthodoxy to the degree they don't even know what their Great Great grandparents were up to (particularly the serial polygamy ~ they just don't understand why GGrandpa had 5 wives for instance).
So, yes, it can be done. Someday the LDS will wake up, set down that book, and turn into Methodists (or something like that).
The comments section on that article is filled with atheists and other D.U. types. Some managing to slam Romney because they think he is a republican.
Timeline: This nation was first populated from 1621 to 1776 by refugees and emigrants whose influence of Protestant doctrine prevailed. Their mindset determined the underlying precepts that made this, if not a Christian nation, at least one which allowed the Christian religion to flourish and produce America's greatness.
Looking at the general run of our rulers, particularly of the Supreme Court oligarchy, they were predominantly of the Protestant Reformation loyalty. Their forbears came here to escape the stifling dominance of state-funded religion, and they firmly incorporated this aversion into our Constitution and the Northwest Ordinance. Yet tolerance of personal belief in a Jesus Christ of the Bible, and practice of His principles became the approved norm.
Subsequently, though, the need for citizens to flesh out the great material opportunities necessitated a massive intake of immigrants whose loyalty was no longer to personal religious freedom of preferences, but rather the allegiance to statist religious forms which had the long history of controlling rulers and governments.
From that point, the long march of displacing Protestant values and morality began to undermine the original intentions of the Founders, of freedom from government contol and freedom of the marketplace of ideas. First, this misplaced liberal tolerance infected the upper classes of nominal Protestants, then spread across the population, resulting in election of liberal presidents and legislators.
Today we have almost full fruition of the rejecting the founding principles, by rejecting the basic religion that bore a free nation. With the replacement of Souter and Stevens, the Highest Court is finally rid of the slightest taint of the vestiges of the protestantism which originally prevailed. (Although, thank God, that a few of the remaining are to be honored for their desire to restore the philosophy of Original Intent!)
What has already preceded this in the executive branch? It is hard to believe that our current highest Executive Magistrate supports the doctrine of our founders, isn't it? What next?
The body of legislators and bureaucrats has long ago largely gone over to suppressing Christianity in education and government at all levels.
What are we to expect to move us as a nation farther away from Biblical Christian principles? Will election of Willard Romney ring in yet another acceptance of Mormonism at the highest level? Might we not expect him to implement another drift in the judiciary by preferring the nomination of his fellow religionists in the judiciary and bureaucracy? Would that be to our best interests?
I wonder. (But still ready to accept God's determined Will.)
The entire premise of his argument is wrong. “Christians believe that there is one God and only one God”
God doesn’t even believe that. If fact, he said just the opposite. The only passages in the bible that is authored directly by God are the ten commandments.
“And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written”
The first commandment is “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”
So, there are other Gods, and our God is insecure.
Now all the fundies will tell me what God really meant to say... Like God needs their help to get a point across.
I thought the comments were very interesting. Many of them were identical, written by a couple of people maybe instead of the “numbers” they appeared to be. Also many sounded just like the comments of FR from the mormonISM defenders and anti-Christians on FR.
Really? Either one of two things, you forgot your sarcasm tag which is sad because you are mocking God or you really beleive God Almighty is insecure, and if that be the case He is not worthy to be called God.
Any reasoned person would know what the meaning here, for instance I would say you have another god before you, and their name is “idiocy”.
A christian who goes straight to name calling and can’t even spell “beleive”? Oh- the sweet irony. But I digress
I was pointing out that the author’s premise is 180 degrees wrong. The bible is full of references to other gods. God’s own handwriting references other gods. Attack Mormons all you want, but at least use a better premise???
It is a damned poor mind indeed that can’t think of at least two ways of spelling any word.
You have completely distorted the meaning of that passage. God didn’t admit other gods exist. He merely prohibited one from believing there is another deity.
Also, there are other other Bible verses that directly quote God and reject your contention that are other gods. You don’t have a solid grasp of the Bible if you claim the ten commandments are the only passages directly authored by God.
Try these other verses, which totally refute your position:
“I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
“For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”1 Timothy 2:5
“There is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
“And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad].” Zechariah 14:9
“”The foremost is, Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; “ Mark 12:29
“you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?” John 5:44
“I and the Father are one [hen].” John 10:30
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only [monos] true God” John 17:3
“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one [hen], just as We are one [hen]” John 17:22
“since indeed God is one [hen]” Romans 3:30
“to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27
“there is no God but one [hen]” 1 Corinthians 8:4
“yet for us there is but one [hen] God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one [hen] Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” 1 Corinthians 8:6
“Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one [hen].” Galatians 3:20
“There is one [hen] body and one [hen] Spirit, one [hen] hope, one [hen] Lord, one [hen] faith, one [hen] baptism, one [hen] God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” Ephesians 4:4-6
“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God” 1 Timothy 1:17
“which He will bring about at the proper timeHe who is the blessed and only [monos] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone [monos] possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” 1 Timothy 6:16
“You believe that God is one [hen]. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” James 2:19
“For certain persons deny our only [monos] Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” Jude 4
“the only [monos] God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.” Jude 25
Blah blah blah, we can do this all day. The ultimate source is the 1st commandment. Written on a stone tablet by God himself. Given to Moses by God directly. Stored in the ark of the covenant. Argue with God. You seem to know better what he meant than he did. Or is your argument that he is just a poor writer that can’t get a point across clearly?
You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are around you
Pay attention to all that I have said to you, and make no mention of the names of other gods, nor let it be heard on your lips.
They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.
And Joshua said to all the people, Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.
And if you do not turn aside from any of the words that I command you today, to the right hand or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
“I said your god is idiocy.”
Well thanks for clearing that up for me. That’s much more christian of you...
Heber C. Kimball - "You have heard us talk about it a great deal, and probably many do not believe one word we say, but his people will never, no never, prosper to a high degree until we make a public example of what? Men who have be warned and forewarned ... we will take them and slay them before this people." Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p.173 (1857)
Brigham Young - "There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground ... I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them not destroy them. ... I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood" Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 53 (1856)
Jedediah M. Grant - "if they are covenant breakers we need a place designated, where we can shed their blood." Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 50 (1856)
That’s a bit more along the lines of why I read this post to begin with. What are going to be the “mormon” attacks against mittens should he win the nomination. But again, for each of those quotes it’s easy to find some truly nasty stuff in the bible to counter with.
Now I’m off to play golf. Since I couldn’t find a good golf prayer about giving me long straight balls of thunder... I leave you all with the holy hand grenade classic. From the book of armament.
All those verses show is that some people believed there were other gods. Deuteronomy 32:17, which you quoted, shows that the “gods” that some people believed in were actually just demons and not true gods at all.God prohibited people from believing in false gods. The verses you quoted don't substantiate your position at all, while the verses I quoted easily refute your blasphemy.
The ultimate source is God, who provided revelation in a variety of ways. The stone tablets was one form of revelation while speaking through prophets was another. Your statements make the stone tablets out to be “gods”, which isn't surprising considered your blasphemous beliefs.
I took a look at your home page, sometimes it’s a good thing to see where people are coming from (sure you looked at mine).
Did you build that light aircraft? It is sweet.
See you flew F-16s, when I was drafting I helped work on the radar system. The company was very excited about the craft.
Very nice machine.
Of COURSE they do!!!
I'd be REALLY afraid; if I were an SLC Mormon !!!
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
*The following is a letter from Elder Lance B. Wickman, General Counsel of the Church to publishers of major newspapers, TV stations and magazines. It was sent out on Tuesday, June 24, 2008.
Recent events have focused the media spotlight on a polygamous sect near San Angelo, Texas, calling itself the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As you probably know, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has absolutely no affiliation with this polygamous sect. Decades ago, the founders of that sect rejected the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, were excommunicated, and then started their own religion. To the best of our knowledge, no one at the Texas compound has ever been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Unfortunately, however, some of the media coverage of the recent events in Texas has caused members of the public to confuse the doctrines and members of that group and our church. We have received numerous inquiries from confused members of the public who, by listening to less than careful media reports, have come to a grave misunderstanding about our respective doctrines and faith. Based on these media reports many have erroneously concluded that there is some affiliation between the two or even worse, that they are one and the same.
Over the years, in a careful effort to distinguish itself, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has gone to significant lengths to protect its rights in the name of the church and related matters. Specifically, we have obtained registrations for the name The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mormon, Book of Mormon and related trade and service marks from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office and corresponding agencies in a significant number of foreign countries.
We are confident that you are committed to avoiding misleading statements that cause unwarranted confusion and that may disparage or infringe the intellectual property rights discussed above. Accordingly, we respectfully request the following:
Stated simply, we would like to be known and recognized for whom we are and what we believe, and not be inaccurately associated with beliefs and practices that we condemn in the strongest terms. We would be grateful if you could circulate or copy this letter to your editorial staff and to your legal counsel.
We thank you for your consideration of these important matters.
Lance B. Wickman
Oh we DO not!
There is just ONE god!!!
--MormonDude(Who just happens to have TWO bodies.)
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,
' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Come on guys!
We solved that angels-on-a-pinhead thingy long ago!
Like what? What nasty stuff did Jesus have to say?
Now Im off to play golf.
Oh, so I take it you don't really know and just pulling things from your bottom?
If Mormonism is suppose to be the "another gospel of Jesus Christ" then why does your church founder's teachings conflict with that of Jesus?
When Brigham Young said,"Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?" or Brigham Young - If you find your brother in bed with your wife, and you put a javelin through them both, you would be justified and they would atoned for their sins and be received into the kingdom of God. ... "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it;" Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247 (1856)
How does that compare to the teachings of Christ?
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say? 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her. 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you? 11 No one, sir, she said.
Then neither do I condemn you, Jesus declared. Go now and leave your life of sin.
The bible is full of references to other gods. Gods own handwriting references other gods. Attack Mormonds all you want, but at least use a better premise???(Post #15)
Listen, I can understand that some distinctions in the Bible are easily lost upon those who don't study it very carefully.
I encourage you to look at just two New Testament verses which are meant to distinguish usage of the term "god" -- so that you don't lump that word into only a single usage:
8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. (Apostle Paul, Letter to Galatians, 4:8)
Key realization here: Some "gods" highlighted in the bible are not "gods" by nature.
Here -- this is another passage that clarifies this:
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. (Letter to the Phillippians 3:19)
C'mon, Dave...you don't really think that the apostle Paul (& other biblical writers...and God, Himself) thought that a stomach is a literal, by-nature "god" do you?
Key realization here: A god, Dave, is anything worshiped (& often appeased sacrificially). $ can be a god. An appetite can be a god. Popularity can be a god. Ambition can be a god. A career can be a god. Substances (as in substances abused) can be gods. The devil (devil worship) can be a god. Nature worship (some cultures animate nature as imbedded with spirits to be appeased) is a good example. Old Testament times especially depicted all types of idols treated as "gods." I can go on and on.
For you to conclude that we -- or the bible -- defines ANY of these things as literal, by-nature gods conveys some basic lack-of-Biblical discernment skills. (And that's "OK" to some degree...I mean, hey, we're all not-up-to-snuff on some subject matter...the difference is that when I'm ignorant on a given topic, I try not to export to others)
“I took a look at your home page, sometimes its a good thing to see where people are coming from (sure you looked at mine).”
I did look at yours, hours ago. I liked it and I like you. I’m just stirring the puddin.
The Radar on the F-16 was awesome. Even way back when I flew it. I flew the ADF-16 which had constant wave capability for the AIM-7. Very rare. We loved it when we would go fight F-15’s and they’d say we could be full up F-16’s for the fight. They were mighty surprised when we would start lobbing AIM-7’s at them... heh heh heh...
I asked if yo build the light craft, I see that you did. What a fun thing to do.
“But again, for each of those quotes its easy to find some truly nasty stuff in the bible to counter with.
Like what? What nasty stuff did Jesus have to say?”
I didn’t say Jesus. I said the Bible. Do your own research.
“Now Im off to play golf.
Oh, so I take it you don’t really know and just pulling things from your bottom?”
How in the world does playing golf mean I don’t know anything?
I didn’t say there were other gods, god did. Argue with him.
I didn't imply that it proved anything.
It seems that they dislike Romney because they think he is a Christian and a republican. He is neither
So true; but until HE realizes it; his soul is in jeopardy.
It’s good that all this publicity is coming to mormonism because of Romney, it’s a welcome ray of sunshine on a dismal cult.
On the other hand though, many people, already dismissive of Christianity or worse, down right antagonistic are perfectly willing to see Mitt as one of those nutty “Christians” and typical of the lot, no nuttier than any of the rest.
That in a nut shell is probably the number one thing that disgusts me about mormonism. That they now want to identify as Christians, thereby casting real Christians in a bad light.
Well, maybe not number one but right up near the top. Number one would be that they are leading gullible people all over the world straight to the pits of hell and those people willingly go there singing, “Praise To The Man”.
Go ye into all the world....
And, even if we HAD no MORMONs; we'd still have ME!
God didn’t say there were other gods. It has already been thoroughly explained to you that context matters. You have negated the context of the verses you quoted to arrive at a meaning that is very different from the original author.
Jews and Christians have universally interpreted the Old Testament as teaching God is monotheistic long before the mormon cult ever arrived. There will always be trouble makers like you that will pick a couple verses from the Bible, ignore the context of those passages, and render a completely distorted view. That is how false teachers work. They take the Truth and distort it to fit their faulty reasoning.
“God didnt say there were other gods”
Yes he did.
Spin it all you want.
I just hope you don’t burn in hell for spinning your false beliefs.
There is no spin in the interepretation of the Old Testament that is accepted by all of Christianity and Judiasm. It’s called using the CONTEXT in order to determine the meaning.
You’re concerned that my believing that God is monotheistic will send me to Hell???!!!! So, you’re saying that God(s) will send me to Hell because I don’t believe that (they) are really more than one God???!!! Your delusion knows no bounds.
You have no reading comprehension skills or ability to interpret the Bible and now you want to throw this garbage around. Clearly, you’re trolling...I regret wasting any time conversing with you.
King Philippe III is the fellow who started it off. When his father, Philippe II died in 1598 (along with a number of other European notables) that opened up the Americas to smart young people with advanced thinking ~ so Philippe III and his friends came up with the Treaty of London (1604) which crammed down the idea of American settlement according to an Hapsburg or Spanish division of the territory.
He gave his cousin James an area called Acadia. He gave his other cousin, the King of France, Canada. He then carved out a colony called Carolana (now North and South Carolina) ~ probably because they'd discovered gold there.
The rest, West of the Alleghenies was identified for future settlement as time, circumstance and energy would allow, and the part East of the Alleghenies was an experiment where Protestants from Europe, except "the Dutch", could settle.
Virginia was not all that big ~ it encompassed everything we now call Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Downstate New York, Long Island, Maryland, Delaware, Virginia and West Virginia.
By the standards of the time that was huge though.
Over the next couple of centuries Spain weakened, France weakened, England strengthened, and the custom of Protestants going to America to settle continued.
We date our family's arrival to as early as 1502 ~ with various other individuals coming here over the 1500s to work as surveyors, researchers, or just adventurers ~ one of their cousins was a noted Catholic dissenter in Spain who advocated opening the American missions up to all the various orders and brotherhoods and not just to one group of priests (as had been the case). Schism was avoided when even King Philippe II saw the wisdom of that action and convinced the Popes to go along with it (they still having civil authority over each and every priest in every order).
By 1598, as the news of the death of Philippe and Elizabeth spread there was an aggressive rush to carve chunks out of the Americas and tens of thousands of Europeans began history's greatest landrush.
By 1621 there were actually places with names around here, but it wasn't until the 1670s that it became necessary once again to be concerned with whether or not someone was Catholic or Protestant. Implicit in the Peace of Westphalia (which ended the Thirty Years War) was the concept of "the national church", so the freewheeling Americans were reined in. Charles II took the English throne as a quite tamed monarch.
In brief, Our America began as a Protestant "geto" protected by the Catholic King of Spain ~ which is something we've forgotten about. He was one of history's good guys and he loved to party hearty!
That is very interesting! Thank you! I have read that the individual, Squanto, who kept the Pilgrims from starving to death (half of them already gone) knew the "invaders'" language, because he had been to Europe. I had never learned that back in public school. And, of course, the Jamestown settlers must have been largely Protestants? And, also, I left out the Hugenots (when?) down at St. Augustine --
There are 30 other KNOWN early settlement archaeological sites on the East Coast that have not yet been examined.
There are a number of suspected Spanish settlements from the early 1500s as well ~ but they weren't as well developed so there's not a lot of debris to work with.
A new site is in Long Island where the Shinnecock Indian Nation has a small reservation. A plant grows there called CLOUD BERRY. The particular subspecies grows only in Scandinavia.
Otherwise the Cloud Berry doesn't live in the lower 48!
So, why? Obviously it was partially domesticated before it's arrival here ~ probably planted by SOMEBODY in an early time. No doubt the Shinnecock will get someone in there to make some archaeological hay out of that plant.
At the moment I have my eye on about 25 probable 1500s Spanish sites (mining or fur trade) in the Midwest EAST of the Mississippi.
No one has looked at these places ~ one of them even seems to have been one of those "La Villa Real" places, just like St. Louis, Santa Fe, etc.
NOTE, for Spain there were two kinds of Dutch. Good Catholics ~ living in what is now Belgium and Southern Netherlands. Bad Protestants - living in what is now Northern Netherlands (Holland).
During the very earliest periods of exploration and settlement in the New World the Spanish were accompanied by Dutch! The New York settlement of 1621 was just the latest in a number of Dutch trading villages set up all over the America. We lose site of that because we don't read Spanish history! Instead, we read English history.
Any gold tablets found up around Palmyra region, brought in by adventurers?