Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: RayBob
I’m not sure that this is not a distiction without difference.... In the end, Christ took upon himself the sin of the world and died for our sins. Whether he took it on during the time in Gethsemane or while on the cross... what does it matter?

I was thinking the same thing, but also to the level of - where's the distinction? One could easily say that the crucifixion started at Gethsemane. After all, when did it start? Certainly not at the the cross, because of the torture and whipping and journey that preceded it. And certainly not entirely physically, because anyone can - and does eventually - physically die. So there is a ferocious mental, emotioan and psychic componant to the crucifixion, too, that is a huge part of Jesus' sacrifice. And when did it start? When he looked at his life up to a certain point and decided, that's all done. Now I take on the crucifixion. And that seems to be what happened in Gethsemane, and then continued on through the cross - all one thing.

7 posted on 04/05/2012 3:18:03 PM PDT by Talisker (He who commands, must obey.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies ]


To: Talisker; RayBob
I was thinking the same thing, but also to the level of - where's the distinction? One could easily say that the crucifixion started at Gethsemane. After all, when did it start? Certainly not at the the cross, because of the torture and whipping and journey that preceded it. And certainly not entirely physically, because anyone can - and does eventually - physically die. So there is a ferocious mental, emotioan and psychic componant to the crucifixion, too, that is a huge part of Jesus' sacrifice. And when did it start? When he looked at his life up to a certain point and decided, that's all done. Now I take on the crucifixion. And that seems to be what happened in Gethsemane, and then continued on through the cross - all one thing.

If we say -- as do Mormons -- that Jesus sweated for our sins in the Garden, then the atonement took place there...and then His death becomes a needless "extra."

After all, when did it start? Certainly not at the the cross...

This is (a bit -- to give an analogy) like asking, "Where did life in the womb start? Certainly not at birth.") So, indeed, your point is made...but then you need to flip that as well...

If the point of "getting pregnant" is only to conceive...if conception only is THE crown "achievement," then an "incompletion" -- for example, anything that happened post-conception [like an abortion or miscarriage]...would be downgraded.

There is no "completion" minus a birth; just like there is no "completion" of Christ's atonement minus a death.

The pleasure of intimacy brings sweat and even sometimes discomfort; Jesus' normal pleasure of prayerful intimacy with the Father [see John 17 for His prayer] was actually discomforting.
The pain of birth is agony; The pain of the cross is agony.
The purposed goal of a woman desiring pregnancy is to give birth despite this agony -- via both life in the womb & life outside the womb. The purposed goal of Christ despite & especially embracing the agony was to give life to His redeemed.

Bottom line: Somebody who claims the atonement was "achieved" in a culminating way in the garden is "aborting" the process by downplaying the reality that it's His death that gives life.

Please re-read this section of the article:

Romans 5:8- "But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ DIED for us."

Romans 5:10- For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the DEATH of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

Hebrews 9:22 states that without the SHEDDING (not sweating) of blood, there is no remission of sins.

Never is the Garden of Gethsemane mentioned as playing a role in the atonement. Instead, it is the cross that is emphasized.

Galatians 6:14- "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the CROSS of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."

Philippians 2:8- "And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the DEATH OF THE CROSS."

28 posted on 04/06/2012 8:00:45 AM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson