It's that old "burning in the bosom" thing.
Some folks would slit their own throats...oh wait...if they had that burning thing.
Posted on 04/26/2012 1:32:13 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
Do you find it curious that so many FRers say,
“I used to be Baptist but talked to (whoever) prayed about it and felt the holy spirit tell me the truth of mormonism (or something similar)”
OR “I am Baptist and I will defend mormons and their beliefs because they are Christians (or something similar)”.
Just an odd observation, I guess.
Let's consider your claim Jeff. Since you seem to be denying the meaning of "half-truth", let's start with a definition:
Definition of HALF-TRUTHPlease note that Merriam Webster defines it EXACTLY as I used it. It also describes the content of what you posted quite well. As I've pointed out, your posts contain partial truths. Do you carefully choosing words to (perhaps) avoid writing anything that sounds "non-Christian"? I've asked you pointedly about those things several times to get clarification. Each time you do not answer in a forthright way. You apparently obfuscate by posting more half-truths. A half-truth is the same as a falsehood.
1: a statement that is only partially true
2: a statement that mingles truth and falsehood with deliberate intent to deceive
... Perhaps this results from mormon-blindness, since you've based your whole life on the mormon falsehood.
... Perhaps you feel you need to do so to communicate and have people think of mormonism as a Christian religion, or yourself as "normal".
I really don't know your motivation. I'm not even sure you know. My focus is only on the readers of your postings here who read what you write and make assumptions that are incomplete, because your posted testimony is not forthright about the totality of what you believe. You post much of what you believe. It is clear to anyone who reads my questions to you though, that you do not want to publicly own up to everything else mormonism believes. I make no claim as to why.
It is a complete mystery to me that you as a leader of this religion won't come right out and say:
"Of course I believe Christ was created, that the Father was created, that the Holy Spirit was created, that Heavenly Mother was created. Of course, I believe God breeds in the heavens! Of course I believe I have to do enough rituals and works to be counted worthy for salvation, or I'll never see the presence of God in the highest mormon heaven. Of course, I believe in thousands or millions of gods! Of course, I believe I have a shot at being a god myself someday! After all, I'm a mormon and we believe all that and more!"
No, what we see you post is all the innocuous, feel good stuff everyone can agree with and sound normal.
"I have sincerely born you my witness and it is up to you to deal with it however you will. But the witness is sincere and it is true."
No one doubts your sincerity. It is the incompleteness of the full truth that makes your representation of mormon faith incomplete and consequently, a half-truth.
"It is not "finely crafted"
Dear FRiend, I don't think anyone who knows what mormonism teaches and compares it to your public statement could possibly conclude your testimony is anything but sincere and carefully crafted. You might as well claim Obama is telling the truth.
"I am more than content for others reading to make up their own mind"
And that is why I am pointing out the totality of what mormonism teaches - using your incomplete post to demonstrate that mormonism is not Biblical or Christian - by posting things you undoubtedly must believe as a mormon leader, but that you left out. Now, indeed, they will have the complete truth and not just a sincere sales pitch. If you really want them to make up their own mind, and you are committed to truth, I'm sure you support revealing what mormonism teaches.
ampu
It's that old "burning in the bosom" thing.
Some folks would slit their own throats...oh wait...if they had that burning thing.
There are many out there who have yet heard The Gospel or had someone talk too them about Jesus Christ yet many are way too busy trying to save that other church down the street instead where though they may or may not have some serious doctrine issues they are none the less still followers of Jesus Christ.
Not one church, not one Christian, by their church is worthy and stands perfect. All churches have some flaws, dark histories, or incorrect reading of scriptures from which they established their charter or belief.
Back too the bashing carry on.
In the baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.
In speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Now I want some too see just how much harm they would do a believing Christian by literally hounding the person who did not experience such {most do not} but saying to them then you are not saved. This church is located in most communities in the south I'm not sure about other regions. It is accepted as Christian.
Consider if you will the person who does receive conviction and calls upon Christ for salvation. I have seen some folks cry, be happy, be scared especially going before a church in public profession, and some their expression and behavior was like it was when they came through the church door. They didn't shout, yell, or anything. They may not have even felt at that time a difference within themselves. But they are saved by The Grace Of GOD. But the church doctrine requires this that the other as proof. Most churches have some little quirk.
At one time in my life in the Navy actually I had gone up to the ships chapel for some prayer and solitude. 5000 plus people it didn't happen often. In walks a guy and ask if I've been saved I said yes. He said are you sure? I said yes. That should have ended the questioning by him. He proceeds to ask me well when you were Baptized what did your preacher say? I said I Baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. He said Oh then you are not saved. That was not a correct Baptism because he didn't say I Baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ. I looked at him and said The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost now which one is Jesus Christ? He said but it has to be His name. The guy hounded me nearly two solid years wanting to convert me. He was wrong. Well meaning perhaps but wrong.
See what I mean?
As for myself? I believe salvation comes in an instant is not dependent upon mans Baptism but rather the instant you surrender to Christ The Holy Spirit Baptizes you in the Blood and Spirit of Christ. It is spiritual not physical.
My dad often told me of the day of his salvation. He was in his late teens out hunting as he often did. Someone had given him a pocket New Testament. He read it including verses like John 3:16. In the back of The Bible was a place stating I___ accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and accept His forginesses of my sins. He signed it and laid it down and left it and went home.
Several years later he briefly joined a church and made public profession and Baptism. Most of his life he did not go to church. Something had happened when he was a kid and at a football team camp. The coach called upon him to say the prayer. My dad was terrified of public speaking. Talking to one or two persons he could do and he helped lead many in the family and friends to Christ in his lifetime. But he had a fear that in a church environment he again would be called upon. Some Sunday School teacher, some Preachers, have some discernment on whom to call on. Others it's out of the blue to someone. It wasn't just that in his line of work he took a job where he would not have to go to customers homes but rather he worked alone at night.
When he passed I talked to the ministers involved in his funeral. Both had visited him in his last days and understood him.
What makes one a Christian? Many attend organized churches many do not but go quietly about their lives living in the path they are given doing GOD's work in His name. No ones church makes them a Christian or not. It's a matter of the heart toward GOD and a sincere and repentive heart with a will too please GOD {though we as humans will fall} that is what GOD wants of us. It is our belief and acceptance of Salvation through Christ that sets us free. His blood shed for us for those who ask to receive it.
I would suggest you read the history of mormonism and the "First Vision" account, all 13 or so of them, before making a claim like that.
Google up some of Brigham Young's Journals of Discourses and some of the other self-proclaimed "prophets" of mormonism as well.
A single issue (prop8) doesn’t make mormons Christian.
Red herring. I've not seen one individual mormon in need of defending on this thread.
Mormons need to grow a spine and accept that as long as they claim that ALL of Christianity was lost, needed restoration by a pedophile conman, and that all who call themselves Christians are apostates, they're going to get push back.
Man up or shut up. Simple as that. I'm not going to lie down and let mormonism usurp the Holy name of the one and only God.
Funny you should bring that up...
”…they're all much better people than you and the others…”
”…You spend all this time and anger…”
”…happy to just rant and scream and hi-five each other in your little "Religion" …”
”…playhouse…”
”…It almost like you’re getting paid... …”
”…You are mentally ill…”
”…I'm just part of the smashmouth group…”
”…You are out of your mind…”
”…The crazy train is pulling into my stop…”
”…You people on these threads are truly nuts…”
"“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)"
http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/
My spirit cringes.
It was never accepted, canonized, or sustained as such, despite that opinion.
Everything our leaders say is not scripture...and everything they feel should happen does not. On the Church’s web site it clearly lists the scripture.
I sustain the leaders we have...and they are good men, but they are men and not perfect. Over the years several have been excommunicated.
We each have the opportunity to exercise our free conscience in sustaining them...and hearing and listening to their sermons. When something is specifically recognized as a revelation and scripture, it is presented to the body of the church as such.
That thumping sound is another mormon prophet being tossed under the bus. tell us Jeff, are you a greater spiritual authority than President George Q. Cannon when it come to this?
On the Church’s web site it clearly lists the scripture.
Lets see what your church website lists as scripture -
D&C 68:4 " 4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the aHoly Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the bpower of God unto salvation."
My Jeff, nothing about a requirement for it to be written down - and this is from an acknowledged mormon scripture.
From the lds site on "Gospel Principles" regarding scripture it reads -
"The Lord inspired the Prophet Joseph to restore truths to the Bible text that had been lost or changed since the original words were written. These inspired corrections are called the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible."
The mormon church accepts the JST to be inspired and from God - yet is isn't formally listed as one of the four standard works. Must mean that those 'truths' are not so true.
Gospel principles further state -
"In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, the Liahona or Ensign magazine, and instructions to local priesthood leaders. “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Articles of Faith 1:9)."
Now really Jeff - why is it so easy for mormons to dismiss this aspect of their religion by relegating it as their "opinions" ? Plausible deniability? Remarkably this aspect is EXACTLY what Cannon applied to the JoD. Or does mormonism no longer have a living prophet?
The D&C speaks clearly, and it is true, but the leadership of the Church then determines the official scripture list for the Church, and, for example, whether something should be added specifically to the Doctrine & Covenants.
On the main page of the LDS.ORG site there is a simple link called "Sciptures". It leads to: This Site, which lists the official, recognized Holy Scripture of the Church that we publsh to the world and the membership as such.
Listed along the left side there you will find them listed. with links to each one:
The Holy Bible (Old and New Testaments)
The Book of Mormon (a 2nd Witness of Jesus Christ from the Ancient Americas)
The Doctrine and Covenats (Revelations of Moden Prophets, mostly from Joseph Smith)
The Pearle of Great Price (An ancient writngs of Moses concerning Abraham and Moses)
That's it. These are the Holy Scriptures listed by and read by and studied by the Church. New Revelations, if they end up being established and accepted as Scripture will be put into the Doctrine & Civenants if they are a revelation through the Prophet to the whole Church.
If another record is ever discovered or revealed from, for example one or more of the "Lost Tribes," they would go through that process and be listed.
This does not mean that the urgings and prophetic voice of the Apostles or Prophet when they speak before the Church as moved upon by the Holky Ghost are not followed by the Church...it just means for them to be considered scripture to the Church and World as a whole, they will go through the process of being identified as such through a unanimous vote of the Quorum of the Twelve and 1st Presidency, then presented to the Church as such where the Church then, by common consent, throughout the Church then accepts them.
The Journal of Discourses has never gone through such a process, and I expect it probably never will...but that is just my opinion. Each member can read them and glean what they will from them for their own guidance and edification, but before it becomes scripture to the Church, it would go through the process as I just described it...and then would be listed with the others, and published as such.
God's speed.
Jeff - you claimed YOUR lds site listed approved scripture - I just went there and cited what THEY posted. I would consider THEM to be more authortative than you because YOU said to go there.
The D&C speaks clearly, and it is true, but the leadership of the Church then determines the official scripture list for the Church, and, for example, whether something should be added specifically to the Doctrine & Covenants.
Sorry Jeff - you speak contrary AGAIN to what LDS.org has posted for all to see. There is nothing there that states it can only be listed in D&C. If that is the case - then the "prophetic" voice of the prophet and apostles has been silent for a century. mormonism no longer has a living prophet.
On the main page of the LDS.ORG site there is a simple link called "Sciptures".
Gospel principles is the OFFICIAL doctrinal teaching manual says OTHERWISE Jeff. If your word is true - there is no longer a living prophet or prophetic voice speaking the word of 'god' to mormonism.
New Revelations, if they end up being established and accepted as Scripture will be put into the Doctrine & Civenants if they are a revelation through the Prophet to the whole Church.
Then your church is at war with itself -
Words of Our Living Prophets In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, the Liahona or Ensign magazine, and instructions to local priesthood leaders. “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Articles of Faith 1:9).
There is nothing here that supports you claim Jeff. Your view has dead prophetic voice. Perhaps you should seek higher input.
But then again Jeff - you include a spurious book - the book of abraham - as "scripture" - a writing clearly discredited by modern egyptology.
And still no precise BoM lands.
Eveything I said supports my claim, Godzilla...you just don’t like it. The words of the living Prophets are made scripture to the chruch through the process I outlined. Some, will go into the D&C as I indicated, others may be listed seperately as I indicated.
The articels of Faith, the Gospel Principles manual, etc., etc. are all correct and fulfilled in that manner for the Church as a whole.
Each member individually can take messages to heart from any that the leaders speak or deliver, as I also stated, and apply them in their life accordingly. As it is in any faith system when people are inspired and moved upon by the Holy Ghost...we each find the message thereby that we need on our life.
If they are to become official scripture for the entire Church...and the whole world according to our belief...they will go through that process and be announced as such accordingly.
What you do not like is that the actual process and definition for the cannon of scripture does not match up with your interpretation, desire, and preconcieved notions regard them. That’s fine, but it does not change the process...it just illustrates your interpretation which I have tried to help you with. But my impression nmow i that you really aren’t looking for help in that regard, Godzilla, are you?
We’ve gone round and round on this. I know where I stand as a member, active in the Church, involved in the councils, and practising with myself and family. I have tried to explain it to you...but you want to interject and apply your own...obviosuly biased against the Church, interpretation and dogma.
People can read and come to their own conclusions.
Have a great thread...perhaps you guys can push this one to 200-300 posts...but I’m on to other issues and you’ll have to do it without me.
Sorry Jeff - Gospel Principles states something quite the opposite. Show me the from your standard works that specifically outlines what you say. I've already presented a passage from D&C that contradicts you.
Each member individually can take messages to heart from any that the leaders speak or deliver, as I also stated, and apply them in their life accordingly.
Oh, so you can make up your own scripture as needed eh?
What you do not like is that the actual process and definition for the cannon of scripture does not match up with your interpretation, desire, and preconcieved notions regard them.
Not correct Jeff, I've cited your church doctrinal teaching materials, D&C and can cite other of your prophets that do not agree with your opinion as well. Your posts only go to show that there is no living prophet in the church - ever.
I have tried to explain it to you...but you want to interject and apply your own...obviosuly biased against the Church, interpretation and dogma.
You've done nothing of the sort Jeff. Obfuscate, but you've put nothing from real, official sources forward in your defense. Why is that Jeff? Is it because even mormonism doesn't really know what they believe?
Then Apostle Ezra Taft Benson in the 1980 General council stated clearly that “The Prophet Does Not Have to Say ‘Thus Saith the Lord’ to Give Us Scripture.” Now I will assume that an Apostle (and later prophet) trumps YOUR experience and standing Jeff. Seems that Benson disagrees with your methodical means of scriptural acceptance. BTW, this speech is included in the newly updated Religion 333 Student Manual, Teachings of the Living Prophets (2011, pp. 22-27).
This same manual quotes Marion G. Romney:
“So I repeat again, what the presidency say as a presidency is what the Lord would say if he were here, and it is scripture. It should be studied, understood, and followed, even as the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants and other scriptures”
I beg your pardon Jeff, but where is all this set piece methodology for accepting it as scripture or not? These OFFICIALLY sanctioned documents from the lds hq tell everyone a completely different story. Even the Apostle Romney EQUATES them to the other standard works
Another LDS authoritative source highlighted the topic of “The Scriptures” in its “What We Believe” column. It says,
“Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accept the following as scripture: 1. The Bible… 2. The Book of Mormon… 3. The Doctrine and Covenants… 4. The Pearl of Great Price… 5. God continues to reveal truths to living prophets through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. These truths are considered scripture (see D&C 68:4). They come to us primarily through general conference, held the first weekend in April and October, when members throughout the world hear addresses from our prophet and other Church leaders” (Ensign, January 2011, 14-15).
Again Jeff - your OFFICIAL sources tell us a vastly different story than the one you are laying out. Again, are you a higher authority than the GA that authorized these official expressions of mormon doctrine?
I have tried to explain it to you...but you want to interject and apply your own...obviosuly biased against the Church, interpretation and dogma.
Clearly you haven't, since I followed your challenge to look on the lds site and found contrary.
People can read and come to their own conclusions.
Indeed, authoritative sources from the mormon church lay out a whole different scripture development that what you claim it teaches. I'm sorry, but an unbiased reader would see your 'say so' answers in contrast to the official pronouncements in its own established scriptures, media mouthpieces and educational / doctrinal training material.
But, whereas you right now (and correct me on this if I am wrong, because it is your faith, heart, and belief I am talking about and I will not presume to tell you what is in your heart and soul) do not believe that the LDS Prophets, Apotsles, or restoration of Christ's Church, is not true, and in as much as your interpretation of the very things you read and quote are therefore skewed by that unbelief, allow me, once again as a long time, faithful member of the Church, in sincerelty and humility, to gently help you in that understanding.
The quotes you pulled from the Church web site are true. As members we do read and follow the words of the leaders of the Church as impressed upon our hearts "as though they were scripture,"...and there's an important distinction in that. As I have stated, we sustain the 12 as Apostles, Seers and revelators, the same with the 1st Presidency, and the President as a Prophet of God. (See Ephesians 4:11-14)) But you do not.
We have been around and around on this.
What we continue to have here is "a failure in communication," where you, as a non-believer, who, unless you have changed your heart and accepted the things you are talking about, are trying to tell me from that non-believing perspective, a very active and faithful member of 42 years what it is that I believe and what my faith teaches and what those quotes mean. That's a disjoiner from the get go...what we call in my native Texas a "dog that don't hunt,"...besides being pretty dog gone presumptive.
As for the truth as to how these LDS leaders words are either what you might called "cannonized" for the whole church and set before the world as such (that is, scripture ie. The Holy Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Pearle of Great Price, or the Doctrine and Covenants...which is a living document and can be and has been added to as time goes on), or how they are to be taken and followed by the faithful and believing church members individually (which again, according to my understanding is a group that you do not fall into...correct me if I am wrong).
As I said, to understand those two things:
All of that fits into and goes along with the very things you have quoted...but from the LDS perspective and not your pre-concieved one.
Redux I - This has now turned officially, circular.
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