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Bridges of faith between Mormons and Muslims
mormon ^ | Debra Richardson, Ph.D.

Posted on 05/02/2012 10:40:06 AM PDT by greyfoxx39

Bridges of Faith Between Mormons and Muslims

Chapter Six

What Think Ye of Christ?

Throughout the account of the Savior’s three-year ministry as recorded in the New Testament, we read of the many attempts by the Pharisees and Sadducees to discredit him and his teachings. These groups of learned religious men would pit their lawyers and spokesmen against Jesus in public forums where they would seek to trap him in rhetorical play by twisting his words around. However, their efforts were in vain as Christ would speak in parables and pose questions in return that they could not possibly answer with their limited knowledge.

The book of Matthew contains the account of the last time the Savior was accosted by these groups in chapter 22. They alternately asked him questions in order to “entangle him in his talk”, (KJV Matt 22:15) but Christ answered them in such a way that they “marvelled” and “were astonished at his doctrine.” (KJV Matt 22: 22,33) Finally, when he had had enough, the Savior queried them back. “What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he?” When they answered that he was the Son of David, he responded, “How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies they footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?” (KJV Matt 22: 42-45) This reply was so profound that no one was able to answer him back “neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (KJV Matt 22:45)

Even though the question was never asked again in Christ’s time, the issue and subsequent debates have occupied over two millennia of religious controversy since then. Every major religion answers this question within the framework of their beliefs and many people judge the truth of each other’s faith as a whole by their stance on this one point. Just among the denominations today that claim to be Christian, there are widely differing doctrines on exactly who Christ was, how he was born, his mission, his death, and his current status.

Additionally, written records have been altered, truths lost and doctrines changed over the millennia since Christ was born. Consequently, religious groups have held councils through the years to decide what is and isn’t true doctrine or scripture. Perhaps the most famous is the council of Nicea in A.D. 325 where the books of the Bible and the nature of the Christ were in dispute. Subsequent doctrines came out of that meeting which have led to the variance of Christian beliefs today.

For Latter-day Saints, there is no dispute or question regarding this issue since Joseph Smith restored many of these plain and precious truths to us through direct revelation from God. We are able to answer what we think of Christ with conviction and testimony. We know of his birth, death, role, and that he still lives. We have no doubts that he will come again to this earth and that every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.

This knowledge, as revealed through modern day prophets, puts us at odds sometimes with our fellow Christians. We find ourselves often in the position of fighting misconceptions that we worship Joseph Smith or that we are not even Christian despite the fact that our church is named after Jesus Christ. Our belief in the distinctness of personage between God the Father and Christ separates us from the majority of Christian groups today who hold to the Nicean doctrine of the trinity. We declare that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings who work together in a Godhead that is one in purpose, not one joined together in a single corporeal body or essence. We do not believe that Christ was God the Father incarnate while living his earthly life. We do not glorify, worship or pray to him instead of God the Father nor do we pray to the Virgin Mary or other saintly people.

The fact that we do not use the normal Christian icons of the cross or crucified Christ figure in our churches is another point that promotes our individuality. We also believe that the Bible is the word of God only as far as it is translated correctly. We know it contains faults, is missing text and in many instances uses mistranslations. This confession on our part widens the gap between us and other main-stream Christian faiths. With the addition of our other three books of scripture, it is no wonder that the majority of Christendom today views us as something entirely outside their concept of a Christian faith. Conversely, from our side, Parley P. Pratt’s comments from 1855 as quoted earlier are still relevant now in that we would most likely view modern Christianity’s trinitarian doctrines to be a form of heathenism as compared with those of Islam that closely parallel our own.

So what exactly do muslims think of Christ? One of the foremost misconceptions about Islam is that they do not believe in Christ at all. This is to them like saying to Mormons that we are not Christians. It is utterly false and really very upsetting to a faithful Muslim. Just because they do not have knowledge of his role as the Savior does not mean that they do not revere and accept his teachings as a prophet nor his mission in restoring the truth to his dispensation. The Islamic beliefs about Christ “do not intend in any way to belittle his role or underestimate his character or diminish his great person. On the contrary, these Islamic beliefs depict Jesus in a most respectable manner and place him as high in status as God himself has placed him. In fact, the Muslim is more respectful of Jesus than many Christians… Acceptance of Jesus by Muslims is a fundamental article of faith in Islam.” (Ati, p. 152)

The Quran refers to Christ as a holy or pure son born to the Virgin Mary and a mercy from God. (Surah 19:19, 21) It is interesting to note that he is called Jesus the Messiah in several places in the Quran including the instance of the annunciation of the angel to Mary regarding his birth. “Allah bids you rejoice in a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary.” (Surah 3:45) The Arabic root of the word Messiah includes among other definitions to erase, wipe or rub away. In his role as the Savior though the atonement, Christ fulfills all the meanings of this title but nothing more is mentioned in the Quran alluding to his role as redeemer.

The important point to remember here is that Muhammad’s mission was to rid the Arabian peoples of their idolatrous beliefs, their plurality of Gods and their misconceptions concerning the true character of Allah. The Christian churches during his time were already teaching the trinitarian doctrine in full force, and with the addition of pagan idolatry among non-Christians, there was little if any pure religion left on earth in A.D. 600. This was indeed an age of ignorance in regards to religious truths as well as other aspects of civilization. When Muhammad revealed the Quran, the main theme was the Unity of God- not partnered or shared by any idols, sons, daughters, or additions of any kind.

There are numerous passages in the Quran that refute idolatry and an equal number that address the erroneous Christian view of the trinity essence. The deification of Jesus, declaring that he was God the Father in the flesh and should be worshipped, was as heinous a sin as to believe that God had created daughters who were idols, also worthy of worship (the Arabian idols Al-Lat and Al-Uzzah specifically- see Surah 53:19). In one poignant passage, God declares that they would assign daughters to Him, yet they would bury their own when they were born. “They give daughters to Allah (Glory be to Him!), but they themselves would have what they desire. When the birth of a girl is announced to one of them, his face grows dark and he is filled with inward gloom. Because of the bad news he hides himself from men: should he keep her with disgrace or bury her under the dust? How ill they judge!” (Surah 16: 57-59)

The single important truth of tawheed (the Unity of God) that Muhammad revealed did not leave room for God to have any deified sons or daughters that would draw worship and belief away from Him. Additionally, the Christian denominations were promoting the birth of Christ to be something other than the miraculous creation by God. They were using the words “only begotten” to imply the strict definition of an earthly physical union as the means by which conception took place. That coupled with their view of Christ as God the Father incarnate resulted in many Quranic revelations given in the strongest language possible to set the record straight. Regarding the act of Christ’s conception, God declares, “Allah forbid that He Himself should beget a son! When he decrees a thing He need only say: ‘Be,’ and it is.” (Surah 19:35)

And further: “Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become Him to beget one!” (Surah 19:88-92) Of the actual process of the creation of Christ, another surah states, “And in Mary, Imran’s daughter, who preserved her chastity and into whose womb We breathed of Our spirit; who put her trust in the words of her Lord and His scriptures and was truly devout.” (Surah 66:12)

Jesus Christ came to this earth to live a completely mortal life experience as an example for us to follow. He did not perform his miracles (note: for complete texts of miracles mentioned in the Quran but not found in our scriptures, see end of chapter) by using some special divine power in the role of a god himself, but accomplished them through his faith and to give the glory and honor to the Father only. The Quran has an interesting passage where God will question Christ about what he taught and did in this life. “Then Allah will say: ‘Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: “Worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?”’ ‘Glory to You,’ he will answer, ‘how could I say that to which I have no right? If I had ever said so, You would have surely known it…I spoke to them nothing except what You bade me. I said: “Serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord.”” (Surah 5: 116, 117)

In regards to the issue of Christ as a deity that is part of a trinity essence, the Quran repeats time and time again that Jesus is not the Son of God (meaning his creation through earthly physically begotten means and then partnered on the same level as God the Father or sharing an essence with Him.) (For references regarding the Islamic definition/ connotation of Son of God see end of chapter). If God so chose, He could have destroyed Christ, Mary and all the inhabitants of earth. (Surah 5:17) God is totally self-sufficient without the need of a Son or partner with whom to share His power or glory. All that the heavens and earth contain are His alone. (Surah 10:68) If there were more than one God in heaven, each God would govern his own creation and vie each other for position. (Surah 23:91) Christ was only mortal, an apostle (prophet), and a servant of God, which position he did not distain. (Surah 4:171,172) The disbelievers are those who say Allah is one of three. But He is only one God. (Surah 5:73) The Jews say that Ezra is the Son of God and the Christians say the Messiah is the Son of God. They worship them along with their rabbis and monks as gods besides Allah although they were ordered to serve one God only. There is no God but Him. He is exalted beyond those whom they would deify beside him. (Surah 9:30,31)

Islam leaves no room for doubt about the supreme oneness of God to whom all glory belongs. To the People of the Book (Christians), the Quran gives a challenge: “Say: ‘People of the Book, let us come to an agreement: that we will worship none but Allah, that we will associate none with him, and that none of us shall set up mortals as gods besides him.” (Surah 3:64) Christ as a deified God the Father incarnate and part of a trinity godhead’s singular essence were the very doctrines that Joseph Smith also refuted in his time. Through his first vision of the Father and the Son, the first thing Joseph learned about the character of God was that He was a separate and distinct being from that of the Savior. While God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost constitute a working Godhead, they are one only in purpose, not in essence.

LDS doctrine teaches that Jesus Christ is our elder brother (the firstborn spirit of our Heavenly Father) who came to this earth in the bodily nature and form of a mortal man. “…I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt with the sons of men.” (D&C 93:4) While we affirm His divine roles as a member of the Godhead in the pre-existence and the Savior of this earth, all things that were delegated to him both in heaven and on earth were done at the command of and for the glory of the Father, not for himself. Christ fulfills the commands of the Father and carries out His will. He is not to be worshipped as a God equal in position of hierarchy to the Father. He is subordinate to God the Father in power, supremacy and authority. All glory belongs to the Father only. While we also strongly affirm that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Only Begotten of the Father, the concept of “begotten son” to us is not strictly that of a physical act of conception. Rather, it refers to the literal relationship that Christ has with the Father that was necessary to his mission to act as the Savior for the world.

We are in agreement with those of most faiths regarding the fact that Mary was a virgin and that Christ had no mortal physical father. In this sense, we say that God “begot” him through His direct involvement in His creation and because of this, he is the Son of God (differing from all of us who were conceived by solely mortal physical means). But we do not know how the actual act was performed. In the book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price, God refers to Christ as His Only Begotten and the Savior, but within the same verse states very emphatically that there is no God beside Him. He speaks to Moses telling him that he is in similitude to Christ, “and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.” (PGP Moses 1:6)

The title of “son of God” or “God the son” also refers to Christ’s participating role as a member of the Godhead in the pre-existence. As we learn through the scriptures, Christ took an active role in the creation of the earth by carrying out the instructions of the Father. In the book of Moses, God states: “Behold I reveal unto you concerning this heaven, and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almightly God: by mine only begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest.” (PGP Moses 2:1) All glory and credit for the creation are still with the Father, but He clearly states that He used the Savior to accomplish the act.

The divine role that Christ performed as the Savior is the major differing factor in our beliefs with those of Islam. For us, Jesus was more than just a prophet and teacher of truth. He was also the Redeemer of mankind wherein he used his divinely inherited powers to take upon himself the sins of the world to bring about the laws of mercy and fulfill the laws of justice according to the commands of the Father. This was another of his pre-existent assignments as part of the Godhead. He was fore-ordained to fulfill the role of Savior in the Father’s great plan of salvation for His children.

When he appeared to the Nephites in A.D. 34 shortly after his crucifixion and resurrection in Jerusalem, Christ told them, “Behold, I have come into the world to bring redemption unto the world, to save the world from sin. Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him I will receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me all ye ends of the earth, and be saved.” (BM 3 Nephi 9:21,22) We do not know exactly how Christ performed the atonement, but we believe his divine parentage from God allowed him to have the power of His Godhood at the proper time to accomplish this act. This is why he could not have been born from a normal physical union as were the rest of us.

Although he lived his life as a mortal, he had the divine ability to fulfill this task when the necessary time came. “The fact of Jesus’ being the literal Son of God in the flesh is crucial to the Atonement, which could not have been accomplished by an ordinary man… To complete the Atonement by physical death and resurrection, it was necessary that Jesus be able to lay down his physical body and also be able to take it up again. He could do this only because he had life in himself, which he inherited from God his Father (KJV John 5:26; 10:17-18). Christ inherited the ability to die from his mortal mother and the power to resurrect himself from his immortal Father. Dying was for him a voluntary, deliberate act for mankind, made possible only because he was the Only Begotten of the Father (D&C 20:18-26).” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 2:729)

We do know that the act of the Atonement began in the Garden of Gethsemane and that the process was extremely painful. In a very beautiful passage of scripture, Christ tells us of the event himself. “I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me…For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent, they must suffer even as I, Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit- and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink- nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.” (D&C 19: 2, 16-19)

Even in fulfilling this role as the Savior, Christ did not glorify anyone but the Father and in fact, spoke of his submission to God in all things. “And behold, I am the light and life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon myself the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.” (BM 3 Nephi 11:11) God had chosen Christ to be the Redeemer in the beginning before the world was created and gave him “power to make intercession for the children of men.” (BM Mosiah 15:8) Additionally, Jesus’ role of intercessor was intimated or foretold by most of the prophets who preceded him.

The Quran actually contains several references to intercession (though none in direct reference to Christ), stating that none will have this power unless God grants it. (Surah 10:3) On the Day of Judgment, when the trumpet shall sound, “none shall have power to intercede for them except him that has received the sanction of the Merciful and whose word is acceptable to Him.” (Surah 20: 100, 102, 109) Then it will not matter which idols were worshipped, for none will be able to answer. “The gods to whom they pray besides Him have not the power to intercede for them. None can intercede for them save him who knows the truth and testifies to it.” (Surah 43:86) A very interesting note in the King Fahed commentary on this verse states, “While idols and false gods have no power of intercession, persons like Jesus, who is falsely worshipped by his misguided followers, but who himself preached the Gospel of Unity with full understanding will have the power of intercession.” (King Fahed Translation, p.1516, note 4683)

Muslims believe that forgiveness of sins is obtained through repentance and the will of God. One of God’s 99 names is the Forgiving One and He is able to apply mercy to the repentant: “Say: Servants of Allah, you that have sinned against your souls, do not despair of Allah’s mercy, for He forgives all sins. He is the Forgiving One, the Merciful. Turn in repentance to your Lord and surrender yourselves to Him before His scourge overtakes you; for then there will be none to help you.” (Surah 39: 53,54) The Quran also mentions that there are those who surround the throne of God to plead for forgiveness for the faithful. They implore God to let those who repent enter into paradise with their families and descendants. But ultimately it is only God who forgives and accepts repentance. (Surah 40:3, 7-9) Additionally, there are passages that mention the performance of righteous deeds as a way to help gain forgiveness: “As for those that have faith and do good works, We shall cleanse them of their sins and reward them according to their noblest deeds… Good deeds make amends for sins.” (Surah 29:7, 11:114)

For the Muslim, repentance and forgiveness are straightforward. If you will truly acknowledge your sins before God, change your ways and ask for forgiveness, He will be Merciful and grant it to you. There is no need for an intermediary or Savior to perform an atonement since God is very capable of forgiving man if He so chooses. How God actually accomplishes this is neither relevant nor in need of explanation. It is enough to say that He has the power to do so. Since Christ’s role as Savior was not revealed to Muhammad, there would be no need to provide any other revelations regarding the process of repentance and forgiveness. This is totally consistent with other Old Testament peoples who did not receive this knowledge nor the higher laws and responsibilities that would ensue.

Additionally, the Quran has very little to say about the last days of Christ’s life or his death. There is one passage that refers to the crucifixion as not happening the way the Jews believed: “They declared: ‘We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus the Son of Mary, the apostle of Allah.’ They did not kill him, nor crucify him, but thought they did. (Note: other translations state “as it seemed to them or appeared to them or a likeness of that was shown to them”) Those that disagreed about him were in doubt concerning his death, for what they knew about it was sheer conjecture; they were not sure that they had slain him. Allah lifted him up to His presence.” (Surah 4:157,158) Most Quranic commentary states that Christ was never crucified at all and some even purport that another person was crucified in his stead. However, when reading the verse in context from the standpoint of the Jews’ belief that they killed him, the main point here is that Christ did not die the permanent death the Jews thought they had inflicted upon him. He was indeed raised to God. Again, the resurrection or any reference to it is not in the Quran for it would have to allude directly to Christ’s overcoming death as a part of his role as Savior.

The King Fahed Commentary states: The end of the life of Jesus on earth is as much involved in mystery as his birth… It is not profitable to discuss the many doubts and conjectures among the early Christian sects and among Muslim theologians…The Quranic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews, not withstanding certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some of his enemies; that disputations, doubts, and conjectures on such matters are vain; and that he was taken up to Allah.” (King Fahed Translation, pp.267,268, note 663)

There is one verse in the Quran that is of interest, though, that states that Christ did indeed die as part of God’s plan: “Allah is the supreme Plotter. He said: ‘Jesus, I am about to cause you to die and lift you up to Me. I shall take you away from the unbelievers and exalt your followers above them till the Day of Resurrection.” (Surah 3:55) However, the commentary for this verse only refers back to the quoted verse above in reference to the Jews not really killing him as they thought. Also, other translations of the Quran do not use the word “die” in this passage, but “take or gather” and in the Ibn Katheer commentary, he points out an alternate meaning of “put to sleep”. Christ, himself, also is quoted as making reference to his own death when he miraculously spoke from the cradle as an infant (see end for full text): “I was blessed on the day I was born, and blessed I shall be on the day of my death; and may peace be upon me on the day when I shall be raised to life.’” (Surah 19:33) Muslims believe that this reference to death has yet to take place in the future.

Regardless of the differing views on his death, the fact that God took Christ up to Himself is undisputed. Muslims also firmly believe that Jesus will yet appear again on the earth prior to the Day of Judgement. (Surah 43:61) In the Hadith it states that he will destroy the anti-Christ, establish Islam and remain on earth for forty years before he dies. (Sunan Abu Dawud, vol 3, p. 1203, no. 4310) Any disputations concerning his life and role will then be settled and made clear for all to understand. If we are truly pure in heart and seek only to follow God, it will be easy to accept whatever Christ will teach us when he is among us once again in the future.

This belief of Jesus’ imminent return is something to which both Mormons and Muslims can look forward. At that time Christ will reign upon the earth as the head of one religion and one people who will finally live together in peace: “…and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided. And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh…and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called …The Prince of Peace.” (D&C 133: 24,25; BM 3 Nephi 19:6)

Miracles of Christ not found in the Bible:

1- Speaking from the cradle:

“Carrying the child, she came to her people, who said to her: ‘your father was never a whore-monger, nor was your mother a harlot.’ She made a sign to them, pointing to the child. But they replied: ‘How can we speak with a babe in the cradle?’ Whereupon he spoke and said: ‘I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the gospel and ordained me a prophet. His blessing is upon me wherever I go, and He has commanded me to be steadfast in prayer and to give alms to the poor as long as I shall live. He has exhorted me to honour my mother and has purged me of vanity and wickedness. I was blessed on the day I was born, and blessed I shall be on the day of my death; and may peace be upon me on the day when I shall be raised to life.’ Such was Jesus, the son of Mary. (Surah 19: 27-34)

2- Miracle of the clay bird:

“Allah will say: ‘Jesus, son of Mary, remember the favour I have bestowed on you and on your mother: how I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit, so you preached to men in your cradle and in the prime of manhood; how I instructed you in the Scriptures and in wisdom, in the Torah and the Gospel; how by My leave you fashioned from clay the likeness of a bird and breathed into it so that, by My leave, it became a living bird; how, by My leave, you healed the blind man and the leper, and by My leave restored the dead to life; how I protected you from the Israelites when you brought them veritable signs: when the unbelievers among them said: “This is nothing but plain magic”… (Surah 5: 110)

Islamic definition of Son of God:

1-Christ in Islam, Ahmed Deedat, Dar El Fadila, Cairo, Egypt, 1988, pp. 28-30

2-Christian Muslim Dialogue, H.M. Baagil, M.D., Foreigners Guidance Center, Gassim Zone, Saudi Arabia, 1991, pp. 20-27

3-Islam and Christianity, Mrs. Ulfat Aziz-Us-Samad, International Islamic Federation of Student Organizations, Al-Faisal Printing Co, Kuwait, 1988, pp. 35-42

4-Islam in Focus, Hammudah Abd al Ati, International Islamic Publishing House, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, 1999, pp.151-162

5-Jesus A Prophet of Islam, Muhammad Ata ur-Rahim, MWH London Publishers, International Islamic Publishing House, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, 1979

6-The True Message of Jesus Christ, Dr. Bilal Philips, Dar Al Fatah, Sharjah, United Arab Emirates, 1996, pp. 40-70

7-The Truth About Jesus, Dr. Maneh Hammad Al-Johani, World Assembly of Muslim Youth, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia

8-What Everyone Should Know About Islam and Muslims, Suzanne Haneef, Kazi Publications, Lahore, Pakistan, 1979, pp. 175-184

TOPICS: Current Events; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: islam; lds; mormon; muslim
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To: MindBender26

And yet you won’t stand for him nor take the time to see what the LDS really say about our Savior...

If you again pour through my history as you seem want to do, you’ll note I learned that lesson as well, once thinking the LDS were just a cute little quaint group that had an odd believe or two.

Ironically it was fighting against Romney politically on this very site where I learned far more than I bargained for.

41 posted on 05/02/2012 8:54:56 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: MindBender26

You don’t know me very well if you think I’d support an abortionist, homosexualist, liberal/progressive, socialist statist for the presidency. Not gonna happen and I told everyone that up front. The GOP has done screwed the pooch.

42 posted on 05/02/2012 8:57:39 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Rebellion is on!!)
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To: greyfoxx39

Been a while for me...

I may have to vote for Mitt down the road (and that aint for sure) but God as my witness I WILL NOT walk quietly down that path.

The GOP needs to learn that no means no...

43 posted on 05/02/2012 9:01:04 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: ejonesie22
You have hit on one of my “disagreements” with some Christian faiths.

I know many believe that it's all about what one says or has “faith” in, but with all respect, I'm more into “deeds.” I guess that's one of the reasons I support Conservatives: Liberals talk and pontificate. Conservatives do something!

I was very disappointed when some of my Christian friends said Mother Theresa could not get to heaven because she was not ‘reborn.’ Sorry, but I just guess that if she's not there, not many of us have much chance either.


Again, not attacking anyone’s belief, just explaining mine. I've known too many fine people who happened to be Mormons to condemn anyone just because they are one.

Be well.

44 posted on 05/02/2012 9:03:02 PM PDT by MindBender26 (New Army SF and Ranger Slogan: Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.... but He subcontracts!)
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To: Jim Robinson; All

Jim, Thanks for your reply.

I certainly can understand your position, and in so many ways, it echos mine. It’s just that I don’t see any alternative to Romney.

Does anyone?

Be well

45 posted on 05/02/2012 9:06:29 PM PDT by MindBender26 (New Army SF and Ranger Slogan: Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.... but He subcontracts!)
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To: MindBender26

I never said it was Satan itself.

Simple question, does the LDS take one closer to god or father away. Is it of Christ or something else.

Study it. You will find your answer.

46 posted on 05/02/2012 9:23:40 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: MindBender26

Well, I can tell you this. We’re going to turn out like never before to elect conservatives into as many offices in the land as we possibly can, including building on the house majority and retaking the senate. Obama is without a doubt the worst president in American history. He’s already getting desperate by having a Republican house. IF he’s re-elected he’ll really be isolated with a Republican senate too, and with the Republicans holding the majority of the governors and state legislatures. He’s committing impeachable offenses at every turn already. After he’s completely isolated he will go berserk and REALLY try to take desperate steps. But we’re going to come down on him like a ton of bricks. The Republican led states will re-assert their tenth amendment powers and cut him off at the knees. This is already taking shape. He will not get anything through the congress. He’ll be tied up in congressional investigations and in court. The tea party will explode in numbers and will protest like never before and will hound him day and night wherever he goes. His own party will turn on him due to his being a total failure and his attempts to bypass the congress and the people (we the American people still love our constitution and our freedom, even some of the democrats). They will not be able to justify his radical unconstitutional criminal behavior. The media will smell blood in the water and go into a feeding frenzy. He will either be hounded out of office like Nixon or be the first American president in history to be impeached and removed!!

His co-conspirator Joe Biden too. Thank God we’ll have a strong conservative Republican (hint, hint—goodbye Boehner) Speaker of the House!

If Romney wins, we’ll be fighting him tooth and nail every step of the way. Unfortunately, the RINOs in congress will support him and stab us in the back every chance they get. Romney’s first big government socialist item to try to get through is compulsory health insurance (RomneyCare) in all 50 states. Has already started a national healthcare task force to get it done. They claim it’s a “conservative solution,” is constitutional at the state level and boast that they already have 26 states lined up and ready to push it through (see keyword Bondi, Pam Bondi). He will do nothing for pro-life, pro-family, pro-gun, pro-small government, pro-liberty causes except give us lip service. His appointments will be moderates (liberals actually). We’ll have to fight him tooth and nail and here again, and the RINOs will cave. He’ll push stimulus spending and bailouts. He’ll push global warming. He’ll push shamnesty. And the RINOs will cave. He’ll trim around the edges some on spending and income taxes, but will try to increase “revenues” in other ways. He is not a deep cutter. He’s not a cutter at all. Has no intention of being anything but a moderate (liberal). And the RINOs will go along. If and when it comes time for re-election, they’ll push as never before to drop the nuisance social planks from the party platform to attract the independents and moderates and build their big tent. He’s deeply concerned for “women’s rights,” “minority rights,” “gay rights,” “immigrant rights,” “saving the planet,” saving us from “dangerous guns,” saving us peons from medical bankruptcy, saving too big to fail corporations, propping up the stock market and the financial institutions, saving us from inflation/deflation/depression, making government efficient and keeping the trains running on time. In other words, using/abusing federal powers to save us from ourselves. He thinks he’s a financial whiz, an executive genius and has the brainpower and know how to do it all. The only things he won’t think about trying to save is our inalienable rights or our constitution. All the other crap he’s going to try to solve is constitutionally reserved to the states and the people. That, will never occur to him.

47 posted on 05/02/2012 10:32:25 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Rebellion is on!!)
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To: MindBender26
If you are so wrapped in Religion, and perhaps Christianity, you might remember the Commandment, “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.” See Matthew 22: 36-40

By the way, who are you to judge another’s religion, or worse, ignore God's Law, spoken by Christ Himself as shown above?


Just a saved sinner that has read some of the OTHER verses in the BIBLE that state:

Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.
Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.
1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.
1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.
1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.
 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

48 posted on 05/03/2012 4:19:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: jimt
This is the third THREE MINUTES' HATE post of the day.

Now Ma'am; you KNOW we spend a LOT more time than THAT every day!

49 posted on 05/03/2012 4:20:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MindBender26
By the way, who are you to judge another’s religion...

Why; we're MORMONs!

WE have the TRUTH!

We are doing just what our Leaders have done; and, by Moroni's trumpet, we'll cover the GLOBE with our message when MITT wins!!!

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
President John Taylor stated: " a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

50 posted on 05/03/2012 4:23:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MindBender26
You fail to follow Jesus’ first commandment to love others.

You have it wrong.

It IS 'love' to tell others that they are on the WRONG path. Following a FALSE christ will earn a person a FALSE salvation.

He is ashamed of you.

And how do you know that?

Mark 8.38
‘Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.’

It is the MORMONs who appear ashamed of Christ's words; while I (and my buddies) quote them ALL of the time.

The MORMONs will tell you, "But LOOK! We have the name of Jesus right on our BUILDINGS!!"

Have you ever heard the old saying about a book and it's cover?

51 posted on 05/03/2012 4:30:44 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MindBender26
You consistancy about judging folks seems to be a bit flexible.

Secondly, all you anti-Mormon loonies are the same; afraid, ashamed and too cowardly to admit what you actually are.

As for the name calling; I guess you have your reasons.

Perhaps you'll enlighten others with them. We'll see.

52 posted on 05/03/2012 4:33:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MindBender26
You consistancy about judging folks seems to be a bit flexible.

Secondly, all you anti-Mormon loonies are the same; afraid, ashamed and too cowardly to admit what you actually are.

As for the name calling; I guess you have your reasons.

Perhaps you'll enlighten others with them. We'll see.

53 posted on 05/03/2012 4:33:29 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MindBender26
And, since your FR site makes it obvious you hate Fred Thompson, you are obviouswly a DU troll who came on just after the 2004 Kerry defeat.

Houston: we have a problem...

54 posted on 05/03/2012 4:34:18 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MindBender26
And, since your FR site makes it obvious you hate Fred Thompson, you are obviouswly a DU troll who came on just after the 2004 Kerry defeat.

Does ANYONE know how to remove the smell of elderberries??

55 posted on 05/03/2012 4:34:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MindBender26
He speaks to me every night in prayer. Doesn’t he speak to you.

He who?

Do you FOLLOW what 'he' tells you to do?

The Voices can be quite confusing at times; as you know.

56 posted on 05/03/2012 4:36:47 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MindBender26
I'm just trying to stop people trying to help reelect Obama, that's all, Jim.

In your own, insane way.

I figger the country is screwed for at LEAST the next 4 years either way; and a person's SOUL is of MUCH more value than this country which has lost it's moorings.

If you have read the Book, as you seem to claim, then you KNOW what happened, time after time, when the Jews failed to follow their GOD.

We, as a Nation, can NOT say we have not been warned.

Proverbs 14:34

Righteousness exalts a nation,
But sin is a disgrace to any people.

57 posted on 05/03/2012 4:41:28 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Jim Robinson

Thanks, Jim.

You are entiely correct, and it is an excellent plan of action.

58 posted on 05/03/2012 4:43:10 AM PDT by MindBender26 (New Army SF and Ranger Slogan: Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.... but He subcontracts!)
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To: MindBender26
I respect your opinion, but simply cannot agree that Mormonism is Satan himself.


Based upon what evidence?

Galatians 1:6-9
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Like this fine looking fellow???

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Like THESE guys??
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Ephesians 2:1-2
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

59 posted on 05/03/2012 4:43:43 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MindBender26
Has it on the back of his helmet.

Speaking of helmets; do you know WHY the museums have NO helmets on display of the great and final battle?

Chapter 6

The Nephites gather to the land of Cumorah for the final battles—Mormon hides the sacred records in the hill Cumorah—The Lamanites are victorious, and the Nephite nation is destroyed—Hundreds of thousands are slain with the sword. About A.D. 385.

1 And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And it came to pass that we did march forth before the Lamanites.

2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

3 And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites did grant unto me the thing which I desired. 

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

5 And *when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.

8 And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, and every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.

9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.

10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.

11And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.

13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.

14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.

15 And it came to pass that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth.

16 And my soul was rent with anguish, because of the slain of my people, and I cried:

17 O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive you!

18 Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, and I mourn your loss.

19 O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen!

20 But behold, ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return.

21 And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you.

22 O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy.

Mormon 8:2
And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.

60 posted on 05/03/2012 4:46:28 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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