Posted on 06/13/2012 2:59:02 PM PDT by Gamecock
I suspect you did not read this. I hope you could provide a better answer than the one I received.
Beautiful, well written.
I tend to be more sympathetic to the EO since they DO believe that doctrine can be changed or modified given the will of the church. They don't pretend like our Catholic friends who will say that they never altered their doctrine when their websites clearly shows this is not the case. The EO may be wrong in my personal opinion, but at least they make sense.
Instead, some other would be singled out for some small mistake, real or imagined, the attacks focusing upon where there was perceived weakness, fairly often devolving into some sort of personal attack. I'm watching, and see what goes on.
The Eastern Orthodox Church followed the teachings of Pelagius and John Cassian (a follower of Pelagius and one who emphasized "semi-Pelagius"). As I've stated many times on this board, it isn't surprising the Roman Church is identifying with the eastern Church. They have embraced the semi-Pelegius views which at one time was rejected by the Church as heresy.
The idea that Christ merely was a symbol of perfect love acting out His obedience to the Father may be rooted in eastern teachings but it certainly was not part of western teachings. Augustine view (especially late in life) which he received from the early teachings of Cyprian, was that man was saved to do good works. We don't do good works to be saved. A subtle but important difference. He condemned semi-Pelagius and fought very hard against it. The Church embraced it at the Council of Trent.
But these brethren of ours, about whom and on whose behalf we are now discoursing, say, perhaps, that the Pelagians are refuted by this apostolical testimony in which it is said that we are chosen in Christ and predestinated before the foundation of the world, in order that we should be holy and immaculate in His sight in love. For they think that "having received God's commands we are of ourselves by the choice of our free will made holy and immaculate in His sight in love; and since God foresaw that this would be the case," they say, "He therefore chose and predestinated us in Christ before the foundation of the world." Although the apostle says that it was not because He foreknew that we should be such, but in order that we might be such by the same election of His grace, by which He showed us favour in His beloved Son. When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. Whence the Pelagian error is rightly refuted by this testimony. "But we say," say they, "that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work." But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, "We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things." [Eph. 1.11.] He, therefore, work-eth the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;" [Rom. 11.29.] and of which it is said: "Not of works, but of Him that calleth" [Rom. 9.12.]
Not if you are talking about the divinity of Jesus. Mary is “only” the mother of Jesus if he is less than God, much more than that if he is God. As the Arian controversy shows, the Scriptures are open to both interpretations.
To be more precise, Christ was an example of good works by being obedient. We too should be obedient in good works.
See a problem???
>>1) Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?<<
In John 14:26 Jesus inspired the Apostles with His Word. John 14:26, “But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.” (ASV) Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be given so that the Apostles will have brought to their remembrance all that Jesus taught, i.e., Jesus wants to pass on to the world through the Apostles not their wisdom, not their insight, but His own Word! Jesus, remember, is the high point of God’s revelation. Jesus turns to the Apostles and says, “The Spirit will bring to your mind everything that I have taught.” He didn’t say that to any of the people after the apostles did he.
In Matthew 10:40, Jesus explains the concept of an apostle known well in that day when He said, “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.” (NKJV) Jesus was sent by the Father, and Jesus turns and sends the Apostles into the world. And He says “the person who receives you (as My apostle) in fact receives Me; and in so doing, receives the Father Who sent Me!” Jesus made the apostles spokesmen for Him and authorized to speak His word. They didn’t speak their own words but through the Holy Spirit remembered everything Jesus spoke. Jesus didn’t give that authority to anyone else did He.
Paul taught that it was his word. Galatians 1:11-12, “For I make known to you, brethren, as touching the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not after man. For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through revelation of Jesus Christ.” Once again, no other human beings were given that promise by Christ.
Paul says II Timothy 1:13, Paul says, “Hold the pattern of sound words which thou hast heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee guard through the Holy Spirit which dwelleth in us.” You see he says to listen to those who were told that the Holy Spirit “which dwelleth in us” is what we are to “hold to”. No one else was told that the Holy Spirit would “teach you all things and bring to your remembrance” did He.
The apostles wrote what the Holy Spirit guided them to write and we know that Jesus told them the Holy Spirit would “bring to their remembrance” what to teach. Did Jesus give that promise to anyone else? Did the apostles promise anyone that the Holy Spirit would “bring to their remembrance” what Jesus taught? Paul warned about teaching what he didn’t teach. II Timothy 1:13, Paul says, “Hold the pattern of sound words which thou hast heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee guard through the Holy Spirit which dwelleth in us.” The only teaching we have from the apostles is recorded in their writings. What was important to know was written down and not left to the risky word of mouth.
Once again Jesus says. John 16:12-15 12"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
No other human was given that promise by Jesus and the writings they left us are all we can truly say with faith are inspired by the Holy Spirit and as we see in II Timothy 1 we are warned that we should listen to only what the apostles taught.
The RCC, John Smith, and Muhammad might convince you that they somehow can add to what we know the apostles taught but I’ll stay convinced that Jesus told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would “bring to their remembrance” and told no one else that.
"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS: That the man of GOd may be PERFECT, THOROUGHLY FURNISHED unto all good works." 2 Tim. 3:16-17.
We weren't. Try to keep up.
See my post #248
See my post #248
>>4) Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible? Where did the table of contents come from?<<
See my post #248
>>5) Where is the concept of ‘Trinity” explained?<<
In scripture.
6) Where is the concept of ‘Sola Scriptura’ explained?
See my post #248
He is a poster who claims that Catholics are idolaters, that those who celebrate Easter and Christmas are pagans and that claims that the idea of church on Sunday is a man made tradition and apparently not either Christian or Biblical. Given that this is the point of view from which CynicalBear views the world, why should anyone pay attention to his odd, often incomplete and clearly out of context cut-n-pastes?
The message of the Scriptures has nothing to do with the divinity of Jesus?
All Scripture—meaning what? You are dancing around the plain fact that the books of the canon were not inscribed on tablets of stone as was the law of Moses direct from the hand of God. Why these writings? Why ONLY these writings?
Wouldn’t that be making it personal?
When did facts become “personal”?
Nice try Robby. The fact is that Mary is no where mentioned after the ascension. That’s what we were discussing. There was much written and taught after the ascension of Jesus but Mary was given not even a mention.
Because Jesus told no one else that the Holy Spirit would “bring to their remembrance”. Paul said to teach only what the apostles taught. And Jesus says in John 16: 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
You go right ahead and listen to the RCC, John Smith, or Muhammad but I’m staying with what the apostles taught because Jesus told them the Holy Spirit would “bring to their remembrance” and not any others.
Brilliant !!!
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