Replies

“we can safely state, with no assumptions, that Jesus Christ tells those believers in Him to “comfort one another” with the knowledge that they will not be put through the judgment intended for those who have rejected Him.”

But, Jesus doesn’t say that. You put a partial quote from Jesus in front of your own words. That is not Scripture.

“The Tribulation Focuses on Israel”

Sure, but this does not mean that the church plays no part.

You say:

“While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel’s time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God.”

First of all, we should not expect every verse detailing Israel’s time of trouble to talk about the church. Most of the verses dealing with this subject are from the Old Testament, and there are very few references to the church in the Old Testament, and the ones that are there are veiled. So, an absence of references there is not evidence at all of the church’s absence during the tribulation, any more than the absence of verses there about the church is evidence that Messiah would not found a church. This is a fallacy called “argument from silence”.

Now, when it comes to the New Testament, where we would expect the church to be referenced, you say:

“nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18), except as present in heaven.”

Which is not true at all. There are many references to the church during the tribulation. For example:

In Luke 21, when Christ tells the disciples of the final destruction of the Temple, they ask when those things will happen:

“7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.”

Then, he goes on to continue to describe many signs of the coming tribulation, and tells them further that:

“12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”

So, clearly the church will be present during these events, because we will be persecuted, and it will be required for us to give a testimony. The last verse I quote specifically states this is a reference to the days of vengeance, so how much clearer can it be what time Christ is referring to?

We can also refer to verses 26-28:

“26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”

Since men will see the coming of the Son of Man (Christ), this cannot be an invisible return, as the pre-trib rapturists postulate. In verse 28, Christ tells the faithful to lift up their heads and look up, for their redemption is here. One cannot “look up” at Christ returning in the clouds, if one is in heaven, so clearly, Christ is speaking of the church that is on earth, to witness his visible return. Also, if they were already raptured, their redemption would not be “nigh”, it would have already been accomplished.

I could cite more verses like this, but I don’t think it’s necessary, since these are clear as day.

Now, let’s turn to your interpretation of this verse from Rev 3:

“Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.”

Notice, that this verse doesn’t say he will keep us from the tribulation, or from the week, or seven years of testing, but only the “hour of testing”. It’s only an assumption that the “hour of testing” is equivalent to the entire period of the tribulation. Does the text bear that assumption out?

Rev 13-7:

“7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”

Here we see that the beast makes war on the saints, during the tribulation. The beast is not in heaven at this time, so the saints he is warring with must be on earth. These cannot be resurrected, heavenly saints, because he would not be able to overcome them. Who are the saints?

The answer is in Rev 14:12 -

“12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus”

Those that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus are Christians, aka the church, not rebellious Israel who have rejected Christ.

So, there is no silence between chapters 4 and 19, the church is right there.

Now, when you speak of God judgement on the world and the nations, you say:

“Such a time of judgment does not require the church, who has not rejected Christ, to be present.”

Yet, the verses I quote earlier in Luke show that this time does require the church, because we will be required to provide a testimony during this time, before men, on earth.

“Only pretribulationism is able to give full import to tribulation terms like “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jer. 30:7), as a passage specifically stating that the tribulation is for Jacob (i.e., Israel).”

This is not a very good argument, in my opinion. How does the meaning of Jacob’s trouble change, whether the church is present or not? Nothing in the Bible requires that the church be gone in order for the Lord to redeem Israel. In fact, most of the verses in the Old Testament and the New Testament dealing with Israel’s redemption show that the holy remnant plays a key part. Who is the holy remnant?

Rom 11:5-6 -

“5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

So, this holy remnant of Israel is according to the election of grace, not by works. They cannot be Jews who are following the Old Testament laws and sacrificing in the temple, but rather they must be Christians, for only Christians can receive grace through faith in Christ. The holy remnant of Israel was, in Paul’s day, already part of the church, and will be so in the days of the tribulation as well.

Remember that even when the "church" is taken out at the Rapture, there will STILL be people coming to saving faith in Christ during the Tribulation. It will be the Jews but also Gentiles will believe. This means that Christians WILL be in the Tribulation but only those that become believers AFTER the Rapture happens. I think this is completely plausible because we probably all know people to whom we have shared the Gospel but who refuse to receive Christ. The Rapture is going to be a HUGELY traumatic event because millions of people will be gone and I think this fact will be a perfect opportunity for the anti-christ to come along and calm folks down. He will have some kind of explanation, that many will believe and he will deceive them further.

But not everyone will follow him. Some of those people we have witnessed to and pray for WILL finally believe as they remember what we told them concerning this happening. Many books and such will further compel them to finally believe but they will be persecuted along with believing Israel and many will be martyred. When Revelation talks about those slain for the testimony of Christ and who did not take the mark of the Beast, it is those people being spoken of. Yet the "church" - those who are in Christ and who are taken up in the Rapture, will NOT be those left behind to go through the Tribulation. Over and over God calls it the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" and as GiovannaNicoletta said, this is NOT for the Bride of Christ to endure.

In I Thess. 4, those who "have fallen asleep" that Jesus brings back with him, are those believers who have died and who have been in heaven with the Lord. They do not as yet have their glorified bodies (resurrection body) but they descend with Jesus (their spirits/souls) and their bodies upon the earth rise up to meet their spirits and are changed into glorified bodies as are ours as we also rise up with them to meet the Lord in the air and "so shall we ever be with the Lord". In I Thess. 5, the Tribulation has begun and it is AFTER the Rapture. Those spoken of here are the Jews who will be persecuted with new believing Gentiles. There IS no mention of the "church" after chapter 4 in the narrative. There is a sequence of events and players within those events but it can be confusing about who is what if we don't separate the "church" from believers after the Rapture during the Trib. Go back and read I Thessalonians 4 and 5 together. Chapter four is talking to believers (the church) and chapter 5 is talking to believers who go into the Tribulation.

Can you give me a verse from anywhere in the Bible that states that people who have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior will go through the judgments that are for those who have rejected Him as Savior?

That verse, of course would contradict this one:

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 1 (Revelation 3:10)

The original Greek used in that passage is "ek" which means "out of", not "through". Christ tells us there that those who have kept His word, which includes the salvation Scriptures, will be kept out of, not through the "time of testing" that will come on the world.

If the Church is to go through the seven year wrath that God says is for those who reject Him, then God has given us that information somewhere in Scripture.

There will be multitudes saved during the Tribulation, who were not taken at the Rapture because they were not saved at that time. They are identified as those who come out of the Tribulation, literally, ‘The Tribulation,’ the great one. These are martyrs killed in the last half of the Tribulation during the reign of the beast as depicted in Revelation 13. We are given Scriptural contrasts between those who will be saved during the Tribulation, and Church-age saints:

Church age: Kept out of the Tribulation by the rapture ( Rev. 3:10). Tribulation saints: Come out of the Great Tribulation through Martyrdom (Rev. 7:14)
Church age: Clothed in white raiment or garments (mantle, cloak (Rev. 3:5; 4:4). Tribulation saints: Clothed in white robes (stolh, a festal robe) (Rev. 7:9)
Church age: Sit on thrones about the throne (Rev. 4:4). Tribulation saints: Stand before the throne ( Rev. 7:10)
Church age: Wear crowns (stefanos, the victor’s crown as promised to the church) ( Rev. 4:4). Tribulation saints: No crowns mentioned.
Church age: Have harps and golden bowls full of incense (Rev. 5:8). Tribulation saints: Palm branches in their hands (Rev. 7:9)
Church age: Sing a new song (Rev. 5:9). Tribulation saints: Cry out with a loud voice (Rev. 7:10)
Church age: Declared to be a kingdom of priests who will reign with Christ (Rev. 5:10). Tribulation saints: Serve Him day and night (Rev. 7:15, 20:4)

So we see where Scripture makes distinctions between those who are raputred before the Tribulation, and those who come to Christ during the Tribulation. Two different groups of people, with two different positions in Heaven.

Then there's the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, which Scripture tells us will take place in Heaven during the Tribulation, but, if the Church won't be in Heaven during the Tribulation, then that Scripture has to be false:

“Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) Then the angel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’” And he added, “These are the true words of God.” (Revelation 19:7-9)

The bridegroom at this marriage is Jesus Christ. From many verses in scripture we know that Jesus is the lamb, and in John 3:29, John refers to Jesus as the bridegroom. The identity of the bride is found in Ephesians 5:32 where Paul likens the husband in a relationship to Christ and the wife to the Church. 2 Corinthians 11:2 also says, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.”

In Revelation 19:9 we also find that there will be guests at this marriage. The guests can’t be the Church because the bride is never considered a guest. From John the Baptist, who lived before the death and resurrection of Christ, we know that he was a friend of the bridegroom (John 3:29). The Old Testament saints and those who lived before Christ’s sacrifice but had faith in God are the friends of the bridegroom that make up the guests who are honored and blessed to be invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb. This does not mean the Old Testament saints are somehow inferior to the Church. These saints will also have promises fulfilled and enjoy a special relationship with the Lamb that we will not share in. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is simply a special blessing reserved for the Church. Again, if the Church is on earth during the Tribulation, then this Scripture is false and God has lied to us here.

There are more Biblical proofs that the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation:

Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

So in light of all the Scripture that tells us that those who know Christ as Savior will not go through the judgment and wrath He has reserved for those who reject Him, I'm going to need the Scripture from you where Christ says that His bride will go through that judgment and wrath.

We have seen all of your denials of these Scriptures which emphatically state that the bride will not go through the Tribulation. Now I need to see where Jesus Christ contradicts Himself and says that the bride will go through the Tribulation.