Posted on 07/07/2012 7:46:27 PM PDT by Salvation
Thanks for the article.
Regards
In Brittany the Protestant Reformation of the 1500s took an entirely different course than that anywhere else ~ the people stayed Catholic, the nobility in the towns stayed Catholic, the rural nobles became Protestant.
In nearby France , the nobility in the towns became Protestant and the rural nobles stayed Catholic for the most part. The people split depending on social function with a Catholic peasantry and a Protestant mercantile class.
The quite large royal family at the top also split with d'Guise on one side and the Huguenots on the other ~ although even the wealthiest d'Guise had home chapels just like the wealthiest Huguenots.
When it came to foreign relations, the French relatives of the Spanish king (after 1598) fared well whether they were Catholic or Protestant.
Most amazingly in the last quarter of King Philippe I/II"S reign (1555 to 1598) the rural nobles in Brittany, then arguably the wealthiest nobility in Europe outside of the Spanish royal family, and totally Protestant, raised a sort of rebellion with a demand that their country (Brittany) be transferred from the French claimants to the Spanish claimants!
I"m working on that part right now because I find Breton nobles among the Spanish then living and working in the New World.
Their own families at the time were living in Sweden!
It's complicated.
While reducing it all to Protestants bashing Catholics or Catholics bashing Protestants may be satisfying to polemicists and apologists among the faithful of both sides, it's quite clear that this does not explain the matter in any way approaching accuracy.
Looking to loyalties to monarchy versus advocacy of a more Republican form of government does.
After having studied these kings in the 1500 period I've come to the conclusion they were a lot brighter and humane than the English ever gave them credit for.
Thank you for posting this.
As a child in a Maryland Catholic school, I learned much about the Calverts and the founding of Maryland, but don’t recall the part about an attempt at a colony in Newfoundland. Now, my curiosity is aroused on that point.
BTW, we visited St. Mary’s City last spring. They have added a lot of recreated buildings since we were there about 15 years ago. Wonderful visit. I was particularly moved by the rebuilt church, which had been constructed almost exclusively using authentic building materials and practices. Beautiful place.
Just got to this thread, and i wanted to thank you for so much interesting information here and elsewhere, and your objective tone.
We tend to be guilty of judging the forefathers anachronistically.
But despite the conflicts, America is an anomaly among the nations, and insomuch as the power of the evangelical gospel that worked to bring souls to be controlled from within then they needed not be controlled from without, and the opposite is increasingly the case today.
The Carvajal name is actually Breton and/or Cornish in origin but has been reduced to Spanish spelling conventions.
The precise reason for discontinuance of the colony at Newfoundland, or Baccalos as it was called by John Cabot (again, an Italian explorer), was simply that Spain had absorbed Portugual (again) and cut off the subsidies.
To get an idea of where this colony was in 1515 you'll want to look for St. John's ~ Bay of Conception. I'm not sure there are any actual remains ~
When looking at American history you have to keep in mind that there was a period dominated by Italian explorers. They saild for England, Scotland, Spain, France, etc. That came to a close when there were no more big discoveries to make ~ and during the middle half of the 1500s the Turks dominated the Mediterranean sufficiently that the Italians and French were up to their eyeballs in Turks. That rather slowed down their further entry into the New World.
King Philippe I/II finally gave up his Elizabethan adventures where he'd been Queen Mary's husband, and then sent several Armadas against England. He turned to the Mediterranean and founded The Catholic League. Their ships and Spain's ships were able to totally destroy Turkish presence on the Mediterranean. That gave the Mediterranean powers another century and a half of economic vitality ~ which explains the disappearance of Italian interest in the Americas!
Philippe himself didn't lose interest in America, and he may have tolerated more attempts at settlement in North America than the 1541 expedition by de'Soto, and a couple of other known ventures of questionable success.
NOTE: We know of Coligny's attempt to put a Protestant French colony in Carolana (North Carolina), but much less is known of the background of DeSoto's exploration. His financial sponsor was Europe's richest non-royal, Pizzarro, and he had more than a few connections to Spanish and French Protestant interests, including then Cardinal Carvajal (who gave up schism when Philippe let all the Catholic orders send missionaries to America)
Whatever was going on in terms of voyages to America under Philippe is not all that well known yet Old World Chickens, pigs, cows, goats, dogs and horses began showing up in great numbers. The Spanish didn't send a fleet West without a load of these animals.
There were great risks in crossing the Atlantic so most fleets left port with a wide variety of would-be adventurers abroad including more than their fair share of Protestants, Jews, Moslems, Gypsies, etc. These fellows knew to keep their mouths shut.
By the time other Europeans were officially allowed into North America (See Treaty of London ~ 1604) just all sorts of folks were already here, and everywhere they clustered too closely they were killed by the same plagues that were wiping out the Indians. However, the Spanish, or people allowed here under a Spanish flag, had actually begun moving up the Mississippi River, the Susquehanna River, the Hudson River, the Alabama River, the Red River, and a number of other rivers ~ whereupon they set up limited facilities for trade.
The big deal was gold. The Spanish found vast amounts of gold already in the hands of the Indians but not once did they ever find a gold mine ~ which suggests the Indians themselves were acquiring all their gold from limited deposits of gold flour "strained" out of vast amounts of ordinary dirt ~ but the Spanish did find lead mines, coal mines, silver deposits, and copper ~ native and in deeper deposits.
During this period ~ that of Spanish ascendancy ~ there were no significant numbers of Italians coming to America. That doesn't happen until the 20th century!
That's 4 centuries later!
I think that contributes a bit to the misunderstanding among many Catholics that America was irrationally biased against Catholics. The truth was America, all of it, started out as a Catholic domain ruled by Spain, and was carved up by Spain in the early 17th century whereupon the then King of Spain bought himself and Europe 20 years of peace (otherwise unknown in Europe for several thousand years) by carving out a Protestant enclave called Virginia, and a mixed religion enclave called New France (Quebec).
Not that Italians aren't bright guys ~ they are ~ but a lot of stuff happened from Columbus to Garibaldi's visit to my friend Boungiovanni's home in Brooklyn!
Remember Philippe I's trick of distracting the Italians with open trade opportunities in the Mediterranean, you just have to see his wisdom ~ he was truly a great man ~ he insured no Italian intrigue (no Guelphs and Ghibellines revival now that the Turkish threat was removed) would interfere with his peaceful enjoyment of his America!
I am sure everybody reading this material already has committed to heart an entirely different version ~ written by the French and English! In that story there are no Italians, no Venetians, no Turks, and best of all no Spanish! Yet, that first critical century of European entry into America is a Spanish story ~ and slowly a Hapsburgian story ~ and only at the end an English story.
The Indians could have been running huge steel mills and all of that would, by now, have been dissolved.
If you go back to that exhibit read all the archaeologists notes.
Maryland, "The Catholic Colony" was for a long time not a great place for English Roman Catholics. In point of fact, it was larger Irish immigration and in particular, more aggressive Irish priests who turned that around.
Although it began to abate somewhat by the Civil War, America was officially, that is legally, anti-Catholic throughout the early period.
Thank you for that summary. You are correct; I was unaware of this “multi-cultural” influx prior to our country’s founding — even with my Boomer-era education. I shudder to think what today’s generation is learning about history. Or is it “herstory”?
Catholics had the rest of the continent (including Florida).
The Brits didn't do it ~ the King of Spain forced them into signing the treaty!
There are stories that go along with them.
The oldest families with roots in the 1500s and 1600s are called The Old American Families ~ just in case you wanted to know what they were called ~ that was what it was.
As you read through the stories you discover that they are ALL multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-racial ~ ALL OF THEM!
What we now call America was from the very foundation a broad mix of people.
That set of books will take you over the breadth of the face of the Earth. But, you can look at other sources ~ even the internet. Some day look up Shodak or Shodack for a start point ~ and maybe a couple of other spellings. That is a name applied to the "county seat" of any Iroquoian or Mohican tribe. There are a dozen or so places with that name.
During a time when Jews weren't allowed in New York City a Jewish woman was shipped out from Amsterdam to New York. They wouldn't let her off the boat at the city (mostly at that time an assemblage of log storehouses) so she had to sail up the Hudson.
They'd let people off at Shodack Landing ~ which was where the Mohicans had been leaving their ancestors bones since 9500 BC.
So, she got off the boat there, and was met by a young man who instantly married her. His own father was Dutch, or maybe Spanish, or maybe some other thing, but his mother was an American Indian from a tribe then living in what is now Connecticut, or maybe the Abenaki.
That is the story of the first Jew known to live in what is now the United States ~ her own children were "whatever" ~ but they are like the stars in the sky now.
So, those bones? When they built the NYCentral line up the river the bones were used as ballast. That has subsequently been rectified.
Anyway, so much for the Jews and Indians, what about the ordinary Protestants? Well, that's where they got dropped too ~ the Dutch (Reformed) in New York in that day felt they were oversubscribed with Huguenots so they got shipped up the river as well ~ to Shodack Landing. Three Huguenot brothers arrived from France ~ they carried peas for planting with them. The fellow mentioned above, and his wife, let them have a garden plot for the peas.
If you have New York ancestors who date back to the 1600s those folks are relatives.
I simply cannot imagine how wild things were where a Jewish woman gets off a boat alone and marries the only man on the shore!
Interesting tidbits. Thanks.
Frankly, I would have to say that I have been pretty well out-tid-bitted by M on this thread! I never knew about the Spanish/English thing*.
However, check this out, the latest theory on the "Lost Colony" is that Catholics in the employ of Spain poisoned the lot of'em. M, I'll see your tid and raise you one bitt.
* as a defensive tidbitter, I shoulda said, "Of course I knew all about THAT ... I just didn't put all my odd knowledge together. BTW, in re Maryland, read "Chesapeake," by that Michener guy, who was a Meister Tidbitter.
I enjoy your posts and always learn something new.
excellent post
Nope, you could say the same about various nations in India which had the same pentecostal concept of "souls from within" -- like other aspects of hinduism
well, until the 1800s loyalty was to a king, not to a "nation", hence you could have Nicolas Copernicus, who most probably spoke German at home (yet wrote in Latin) who would fight against the German Teutonic Knights and support the Polish King. You could have people saying they were Polish citizens of the Ruthenian nation, Orthodox but of Jewish descent.
Nationalism changed that...
Though as are a foreigner and a Catholic you may disagree, yet regardless of imitations, it is entirely Biblical to be controlled from within, to be God controlled (so that they need not be gun controlled) by the Spirit of God and conscience in accordance with faith in the assured Word of God, for “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. “ (Romans 8:14) “Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: “ (1 Timothy 1:19)
“Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled, either by a power within them, or by a power without them; either by the Word of God, or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or the bayonet. (Robert Winthrop (May 12, 1809 – November 16, 1894), and Speaker of the House from 1838 to 1840, and later president of the Massachusetts Bible Society)
In reality the 70 year period of low rainfall had not yet completed its cycle, and the drought was on. That ALWAYS brings the saltwater inland from the ocean, making life possible above the Fall line but not below it.
Jamestown colony was relocated inland up the James river where permanent fresh water was available.
This sounds like the same sort of story at Roanoke Island in Carolana.
At the time the territory was under the rule of the KIng of Spain. A POW camp was maintained in the Souv'rn part (Helena?).
The drought affected this part of the East Coast as well, so any settlement would soon find it needed to move inland to find fresh water. That would be more toward Goldsboro ~
When you are drinking salt water there's really no need for a secret poisoner, and if that's the best stuff you've got to drink, God doesn't care if you are Protestant or Catholic either ~ your time on life's clock will be pushed forward to FINISHED.
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