Posted on 07/12/2012 9:34:51 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
She sounds like an agnostic to me, not an atheist.
An atheist is a man who has no invisible means of support. -John Buchan
An atheist is a man who looks through a telescope and tries to explain what he can’t see. -O.A. Battista
If there was no God, there would be no atheists. -G.K. Chesterton
Ominous warning for such found in Heb 6:4-6:
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Sounds like adolescent rebellion to me:
1. Who are you to tell me what to do? (Bible has no scientific proof, and that’s the only type of authority I approve of).
2. You are no better than anybody else (Christianity is the same as all the other religions.)
3. You can’t make me obey. (There is no hell.)
If you aren’t humble, you aren’t teachable. She thought she knew better than silly old ancient people. She is now without any tools in her spiritual toolbox for dealing with the vicissitudes of life, because she did not recognize what they were and what they were for.
Hope this is temporary. Sometimes God gives people another opportunity to repent.
I believe there are several points she brings out, but
I note she does believe in herself.
The following considerations could be appled in her case.
1) Her own minds ability to understand everything(see
quantum theory for the scientists approach to this issue—
e.g.- how can one thing be in two places at the same time,)
what happens if she has a stroke and goes blind, does that
mean nothing exists cuz she can’t see them? (I.e. can your
mind really understand all that there is? If the God of the
Bible is bigger than science, does it make sense that one
could understand Him?
2) The Bible needs to have scientific credulity. As far
as I have seen, many of the things I was taught in my science
classes are now considered false. Sometimes science needs
to have credulity also(see neutrinos faster than light
announcement)
3) Historical credulity of the Bible. Many events, peoples,
geographies were once considered false, but things have
been discovered which can verify their existence.
(example: the existence some of the peoples mentioned in the Bible are
finally being discovered(e.g. Hittites). Recent discovery of mention of
David , a King of a small kingdom, in an ancient inscription)
perhaps the mines of Solomon have been found, etc...
4) Plain old unbelief. In one of his parables, the Christ
did say that if people didn’t believe Moses and the Prophets,
they wouldn’t believe a story, even if the dead came back
to life and told them that story.
5) Fear of believing in Christ. This was exhibited even by
his own close followers(disciples)
6) The person of Christ. If he is a myth, who constructed
the myth? But if he did , indeed, rise from the dead, he
is worth believing(putting ones complete trust) in.
I believe there are several points she brings out, but
I note she does believe in herself.
The following considerations could be appled in her case.
1) Her own minds ability to understand everything(see
quantum theory for the scientists approach to this issue—
e.g.- how can one thing be in two places at the same time,)
what happens if she has a stroke and goes blind, does that
mean nothing exists cuz she can’t see them? (I.e. can your
mind really understand all that there is? If the God of the
Bible is bigger than science, does it make sense that one
could understand Him?
2) The Bible needs to have scientific credulity. As far
as I have seen, many of the things I was taught in my science
classes are now considered false. Sometimes science needs
to have credulity also(see neutrinos faster than light
announcement)
3) Historical credulity of the Bible. Many events, peoples,
geographies were once considered false, but things have
been discovered which can verify their existence.
(example: the existence some of the peoples mentioned in the Bible are
finally being discovered(e.g. Hittites). Recent discovery of mention of
David , a King of a small kingdom, in an ancient inscription)
perhaps the mines of Solomon have been found, etc...
4) Plain old unbelief. In one of his parables, the Christ
did say that if people didn’t believe Moses and the Prophets,
they wouldn’t believe a story, even if the dead came back
to life and told them that story.
5) Fear of believing in Christ. This was exhibited even by
his own close followers(disciples)
6) The person of Christ. If he is a myth, who constructed
the myth? But if he did , indeed, rise from the dead, he
is worth believing(putting ones complete trust) in.
No. First of all you can see and talk to your wife. Second weather or not your wife’s diary contained lies does not have any bearing on her existence. That is a silly analogy.
Maybe this woman is wrong and maybe she is right. I applaud her for standing on her own judgement. She has looked at the evidence and come to a different conclusion, that’s all.
—No. First of all you can see and talk to your wife. Second weather or not your wifes diary contained lies does not have any bearing on her existence. That is a silly analogy.—
You are correct. I didn’t go into detail. The background is that I can’t see my wife and I’m permanently stranded on a desert island and have nothing but my birthday suit. And the natives have never had contact with mankind outside the island.
If they refuse to believe she exists I have nothing to offer as proof. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t exist though.
If this woman truly rejects God it means she was never a Christian in the first place.
—No. First of all you can see and talk to your wife. Second weather or not your wifes diary contained lies does not have any bearing on her existence. That is a silly analogy.—
You are correct. I didn’t go into detail. The background is that I can’t see my wife and I’m permanently stranded on a desert island and have nothing but my birthday suit. And the natives have never had contact with mankind outside the island.
If they refuse to believe she exists I have nothing to offer as proof. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t exist though.
If this woman truly rejects God it means she was never a Christian in the first place.
I think you identified a key clue to the problem here. Reminds me of the hologram in I Robot that made it clear he was asking the wrong question.
I really should have responded more precisely to your response.
You said “First of all you can see and talk to your wife.”
That is why I used the analogy. I have a personal relationship with her, as I do with Christ. I also have four bonefide miracles in my life. I’m not talking about the “normal coincidences” that are answers to prayer. I’m talking about the supernatural stuff. And for anyone other than me they are second hand and therefore of little value.
You said, “Second weather or not your wifes diary contained lies does not have any bearing on her existence.”
I agree. And that is my point. And also, I very carefully inserted the word “apparent” in my original post. It is because I was implying that just because I think something is an inconsistency does not mean it is. I got this story from an email just today. It makes the point:
WALKING THE DOG
A WOMAN was flying from Melbourne to Brisbane .
Unexpectedly, the plane was diverted to Sydney along the way.
The flight attendant explained that there would be a delay,
and if the passengers wanted to get off the aircraft
the plane would re-board in 50 minutes.
Everybody got off the plane except one lady who was blind.
A man had noticed her as he walked by
and could tell the lady was blind because her guide dog lay quietly
underneath the seats in front of her throughout the entire flight.
He could also tell she had flown this very flight before because the pilot
approached her and calling her by name, said, ‘Kathy, we are in Sydney for almost an hour.
Would you like to get off and stretch your legs?’
The blind lady replied, ‘No thanks, but maybe Buddy would like to stretch his legs.’
Picture this:
All the people in the gate area came to a complete standstill
when they looked up and saw the pilot walk off the plane
with a Guide dog!
The pilot was even wearing sunglasses.
People scattered.
They not only tried to change planes, but they were trying to change airlines!
The point of that story is that things are not always as they appear.
I wonder what “contradictions” she failed to reconcile. I also wonder what difficulties with science and history she encountered.
Perhaps she was poorly equipped to be in a position of leadership and the accompanying battle strain proved to be too great for her ability to handle the shield of faith and the sword of the spirit.
“There are thirty-two ways to write a story, and I’ve used every one, but there is only one plot — things are not as they seem.” — Jim Thompson
True. It does not mean that she does not exist. It also means they would have no objective way of knowing she exists and would have to take your word for it. Then imagine a different scenario. You don’t speak of your wife at all but instead tell them that they are evil by nature because someone a long time ago did something to fall from the grace of some god. For this they are to be punished unless they take your word for it that this god exists and that they are not worthy and can never do anything to be worthy of living and the only way to live is to admit their guilt and ask for forgiveness and serve this God, whose purpose they are not to question because their human reasoning minds are impudent to know reality and to deal with it. And if they don’t believe they will die. Then suppose in this analogy you are not stark naked but have a single possession; a two thousand year old book which claims to be the only truth. There are some logical problems with the premises of the book but you tell them that faith is superior to their feeble reasoning ability and that those parts that don’t seem to make sense must be accepted on faith. And if they don’t accept them on faith they will die.
Can you not see that a rational person could look at the evidence and come to a different conclusion.
This statement accepts the premise that there are contradictions in the Bible.
—This statement accepts the premise that there are contradictions in the Bible.—
I very carefully included the word “apparent”. It was quite deliberate. :-)
Yeah, I gotcha.
I’m just flabbergasted by this. She seems to have turned her back on God b/c she was too lazy to research her own questions and doubts. I had similar questions, and I did some homework to see what the deal was. My research cleared up my questions. End of story. Now she gets to be empty and pretend like she’s just fine while doing her best to remove God from other people’s lives so as to make them as miserable as she is.
I’m sure this happens with some degree of regularity. Just as I’m sure that the opposite happens ... with far greater frequency. So why is it that the one is reported but the other gets short shrift?
I would not so glibly ‘applaud’ a persons choice to accept hell.
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