Posted on 07/15/2012 5:46:44 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Alan Chambers, president of Exodus International, which up until now had supported the so-called gay "cure," isn't fazed by a call from an evangelical scholar for his resignation. In fact, he's heard it many times before.
"Someone's always calling for my resignation. It's nothing new," he told The Christian Post on Thursday. "So he can add his voice to the chorus of others whether it's gay activists or now a New Testament professor."
But this time, the concern isn't centered so much on the practice of reparative therapy – which aims to change a person's sexual orientation from gay to straight – nor is the criticism coming from a pro-gay camp. What has at least one evangelical sounding the alarm is Chambers' theology.
Dr. Robert A. J. Gagnon, associate professor of New Testament at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, is very concerned about statements made by Chambers over the last year that assure Christians who persistently engage in homosexual behavior that their salvation is guaranteed.
"The issue is that Alan assures even self-professed believers who are unrepentant and self-affirming in their sin that no sinning of any magnitude or degree will keep them from going to heaven," Gagnon said to CP.
Chambers reiterated to CP his belief that for anyone who has given his or her heart to Christ, the gift of salvation is irrevocable.
"You know my issue isn't whether gay people go to heaven or straight people go to heaven. The point that I'm trying to make is that we as believers can have security in Christ when we are believers," he stressed.
"I'm not saying that sin isn't sin. I'm not saying that people should live in unrepentant sin. I'm not saying that that's a mark of a mature believer at all," he added.
"Certainly if someone looks at my life, they will see that I have surrendered my heart, my life to Jesus Christ. I'll be very glad to tell them what my faults and my weaknesses are and the areas that I pray about in my life every day. But I know Christ. And that is secure. And I think that is something that actually helps believers pursue his holiness, when they don't have to live in that fear or that life of condemnation wondering whether God's going to yank His relationship from them."
Everyone, he highlighted, struggles and falls prey to sin – and sometimes the same type of sin over and over.
In response, Gagnon contended that the debate is not about Christians who occasionally stumble into sin.
"We are talking about self-professed Christians who contend that their behavior, even behavior that Scripture regards as an extreme offense, is actually a good thing and who have no desire whatsoever to discontinue the behavior," the biblical scholar stated.
"I understand that Alan sees his message as encouraging 'gay Christians' to consider how great God's grace is so that, hopefully, they will respond to grace with obedience," Gagnon added. "However, homosexually active 'gay Christians' are already abusing God's grace. Like the incestuous man at Corinth (1 Cor. 5), assuring them that they will go to heaven while they are continuing in gross sexual immorality has the opposite effect of encouraging them to keep on abusing God's grace.
"My disagreement with Alan is over his belief that no immoral behavior of any magnitude carried out in an unrepentant and self-affirming manner over the course of one's life is even an indication of a nonexistent faith. Jesus and the authors of the New Testament clearly regard an untransformed life as evidence for the absence of justifying faith."
Chambers has expressed frustration over Christians placing more emphasis on the issue of homosexuality than other sin issues.
He said he doesn't differentiate between one sin struggle (i.e. homosexual behavior) over another.
"For other people who are involved in unrepentant sin whether it's the sin of homosexual sexual expression or gluttony or pride or heterosexual sexual expression outside of a monogamous heterosexual marriage or any other thing – are those people in danger of losing their salvation over those issues?" Chambers posed. "Would Rob Gagnon and other people make as big a deal about that as they are with this? I don't think so."
Gagnon admitted that he wouldn't make as big a deal about gluttony or even pride as he would about homosexual practice but argued that the Apostle Paul and Jesus didn't either.
He said immoral acts of sexual intercourse, such as "homosexual practice, incest and bestiality," are viewed in Scripture as "more outrageous than fornication or even adultery precisely because of the grossly unnatural character of incest, homosexual practice, and bestiality."
Nevertheless, he said he does believe that "unrepentant incest offenders, adulterers, persons in sexual unions of three or more, and fornicators should be warned about possible exclusion from God's kingdom."
When asked about the process of sanctification in a Christian's life, Chambers quoted 1 Cor. 6:9-11.
There, the Apostle Paul talks about those who won't inherit the Kingdom of God and then says, "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
"I believe in justification at the point of salvation; I believe in sanctification at the point of salvation," said Chambers. "That doesn't mean that we don't continue to mature as believers in Christ. But I believe that we are justified and we are sanctified. But sin resides, the power of sin resides in our flesh. It will always try us and it will always tempt us and therefore we always need to be submitting our mind, will and emotions to the lordship of Jesus Christ."
Chambers announced last month that Exodus no longer supports reparative therapy. He explained to CP that he doesn't agree with the methods reparative therapists employ – such as the use of heterosexual pornography or images to encourage heterosexual attraction – especially when they guarantee a 100 percent "cure" from gay to straight.
"I had someone who said they had experienced a 90 percent permanent – in all caps PERMANENT – reduction of their same-sex attraction," he recalled. "How can we quantify that? How can you even know that that's what you have experienced? And what if at some point you fall to 85 percent or 70 percent? That, I think, sets people up for unrealistic expectations and is something that I'm not willing to offer."
For Christians in particular, Chambers doesn't deny that someone can gain an opportunity for new life when they come to faith in Jesus Christ. He's living proof of that, having formerly practiced homosexuality. Happily married to his wife and the father of two children, Chambers, 40, wants others seeking to align themselves with Christ to be able to do so – whether through celibacy or marriage.
But a relationship with Christ doesn't mean the struggles or same-sex temptations will go away, he emphasized.
John Smid formerly served at Love in Action – a ministry within Exodus International. It was 1995 when he decided to make a bold move and confess that he still had ongoing same-sex attractions. That admission was made at a time when no other persons in the "ex-gay" movement had ever discussed lingering homosexual desires. A lot of people were angry.
He was married to his wife then and still is now.
Nearly two decades later, Smid now leads a ministry called Grace Rivers. His goal through the ministry is not to change a person's sexuality but rather to love them and "encourage them through their journey towards God, or with God," he told CP.
Before Chambers' big announcement last month that Exodus was halting reparative therapy, he made a phone call to Smid in 2011.
During that unexpected call, Smid talked about his "newfound belief centered in God's grace for gay people."
"I talked with Alan about how I had discovered a new awareness of God's grace with us through the journey of life," he elaborated to CP. "I realized that none of us will ever achieve perfection in this life and that there must be a grace covering for us as we muddle through our lives. If Jesus forgave us our sins, all of them, then homosexuality must be another factor in our lives that is covered by His grace. None of us knows where we or any other person is along our journey, but He does."
While Exodus has ended reparative therapy, what it is offering now is something that Chambers considers more biblical – an encouragement of discipleship.
"It's about pursuing a relationship with Christ."
"[I]f someone wants to know what I believe then look at my life. I am pursuing Christ wholeheartedly 100 percent. I don't need a theologian or a set of man-made beliefs to guide me in my daily life," he underscored.
"I'm grateful for people's opinions but I choose to surrender and to serve Christ and Christ alone and in that my life has changed. My beliefs and my desires have changed. They have come into alignment with who He is and who He created you to be. And that's a wonderful thing and that's what we will always offer at Exodus."
Interview: Alan Chambers Talks Gay ‘Cure,’ Salvation for Homosexuals
By Lillian Kwon , Christian Post Reporter
July 14, 2012|12:42 pm
Alan Chambers, president of Exodus International, is currently on vacation with his family. But his much needed break is hardly going uninterrupted following his announcement that Exodus no longer supports reparative therapy.
“I would just [like to] start my vacation at some point,” Chambers said Thursday, after weeks of juggling phone calls and media requests. “It’s been a crazy few weeks.”
Over the last six weeks, 12 ministries have left Exodus International, which has a membership of some 270 (including ministries, counselors and church associations). Chambers said the disagreement can’t be boiled down to “one issue” but what has gotten Chambers in a bit of hot water with some Christians is his recent repudiation of reparative therapy and his theology.
He has specifically been called out by Pittsburgh Theological Seminary associate professor Dr. Robert Gagnon over his statements assuring homosexuals of their salvation. The New Testament professor has even called for Chambers’ resignation.
Chambers responded to Gagnon’s statements in an interview with The Christian Post. The full transcript is below.
CP: I’m sure you saw or heard about Dr. Gagnon’s statement. First of all, what is your initial response to his call for your resignation?
Chambers: Someone’s always calling for my resignation. It’s nothing new. It’s something that’s been part of my tenure at Exodus over the last decade plus. So he can add his voice to the chorus of others whether it’s gay activists or now a New Testament professor.
CP: I believe you mentioned before that everyone at Exodus, the board, agree to the changes you made at Exodus. A New York Times story mentioned though that there is a growing schism within the network and I’m not sure if he was referring to Exodus or to all groups similar to yours. I wanted you to clarify if there is a schism. What kind of response have you been getting after the changes (to halt reparative therapy)?
Chambers: Exodus is a very large organization. My board of directors is supportive of me as the president of Exodus and are very much involved in my decision-making and those types of things. They’re a wonderful and balanced group of people and I’m grateful for their support. Within the membership we have 270 or so members within the network of Exodus whether that’s a local member ministry, a counselor or one of our members of our church association.
We’ve had 12 ministries leave our network in the last six weeks or so. So there is some disagreement over a number of different things. I don’t think it can boil down to one issue over another but I think there is some disagreement. But out of 270 or so organizations that are still a part of Exodus, 12 leaving is sad for sure but people have to do what they have to do. It’s not any different than something like a split that we see happen in churches all the time.
CP: Let’s get to the part that Dr. Gagnon expressed most concern for. You’ve made several statements expressing your belief that active homosexuals can still go to heaven if they have a relationship with Christ. What do you say to Dr. Gagnon and others who believe one’s eternal destiny can be endangered if they have persistent and unrepentant sin and are acting out on that?
Chambers: Well, I find it interesting first that this all centers around the issue of homosexuality and we don’t bring in any other sin issue into the picture – the ones that are running rampant within our churches largely go unaddressed. Issues of pride and judgment and gossip and slander and other types of sexual immorality, gluttony, you name it. I think it’s hypocritical and inconsistent for us to attack this one group of people over any other group of people that are within our churches today. If we were talking about one of their sin issues we wouldn’t have addressed this at all. I find that hypocritical and inconsistent.
You know my issue isn’t whether gay people go to heaven or straight people go to heaven. The point that I’m trying to make is that we as believers can have security in Christ when we are believers. We will all struggle, we will all fall prey to some type of sin, some will fall prey to the same types of sin over and over again. I don’t differentiate between this one sin struggle than any other.
Rob Gagnon said on NPR last week that homosexuality was a more egregious sin. I don’t find where that’s stated in the Bible at all.
CP: There are those who are struggling with same-sex attraction and are trying to not act on that and then there are those who are celebrating it, who are intentionally living that lifestyle and feeling accepted by God. Do you find a difference between them when it comes to their salvation and eternal destiny?
Chambers: Let me be clear that I’m not God so I can’t tell you who is and isn’t going to heaven. What I know about my relationship with Christ is that as a believer, I am eternally secure. I gave my heart to Christ and that gift of salvation is irrevocable. For other people who are involved in unrepentant sin whether it’s the sin of homosexual sexual expression or gluttony or pride or heterosexual sexual expression outside of a monogamous heterosexual marriage or any other thing – are those people in danger of losing their salvation over those issues? Would Rob Gagnon and other people make as big a deal about that as they are with this? I don’t think so.
I think we as believers can be secure in our relationship with Christ. I’m not saying that sin isn’t sin. I’m not saying that people should live in unrepentant sin. I’m not saying that that’s a mark of a mature believer at all. Certainly if someone looks at my life, they will see that I have surrendered my heart, my life to Jesus Christ. I’ll be very glad to tell them what my faults and my weaknesses are and the areas that I pray about in my life every day. But I know Christ. And that is secure. And I think that is something that actually helps believers pursue his holiness, when they don’t have to live in that fear or that life of condemnation wondering whether God’s going to yank His relationship from them.
CP: As you probably know this is an age old debate on the once you’re saved always saved belief. This all kind of boils down to the doctrine of sin and sanctification. I understand there are varying views among Christians. But how do you view the process of sanctification in a Christian’s life?
Chambers: I’ll point to a Scripture that is very relevant to this whole debate. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 which talks about all those who won’t inherit the Kingdom of God. And then it says in verse 11 which I think is so appropriate here “but you were washed, you were justified, you were sanctified through the blood of Jesus Christ.” I think it’s for me with regards to this issue I believe in justification at the point of salvation; I believe in sanctification at the point of salvation. That doesn’t mean that we don’t continue to mature as believers in Christ. But I believe that we are justified and we are sanctified. But sin resides, the power of sin resides in our flesh. It will always try us and it was always tempt us and therefore we always need to be submitting our mind, will and emotions to the lordship of Jesus Christ.
CP: In that passage you mentioned, Apostle Paul said there were cases where homosexuals did change after converting. Why did you decide to stop reparative therapy altogether if it maybe did or could help one or two people?
Chambers: I think it’s an interesting look at all of this. There wasn’t reparative therapy in Corinth. So in this passage I think people came to Christ and experienced a new life in him apart from the therapeutic process. But when it comes to someone pointing to this passage and saying homosexuals changed, well, I’m not sure that’s what that passage is referring to. Certainly anyone who comes to faith in Christ has a new heart and they have an opportunity for new life and that’s a wonderful thing. But it doesn’t say anywhere in that passage that the people didn’t still struggle with temptation or that they never fell prey to that sin again whether it was the issue of homosexuality or any of the other things that are listed there. So to pick and choose that once you come to Christ you’re never going to struggle in those areas again or never fall prey to stumbling in those ways again, I just, I don’t think we can assure that.
Now on to reparative therapy, I think counseling is a wonderful tool for anybody regardless of what struggle they bring to the table. I think we can all use a little bit of counseling on planet earth today. But when it comes to reparative therapy, the reason we have distanced ourselves from it is because some of the things that they employ and some of the messages that I’ve heard from reparative therapists with regards to what someone can expect once they get through that type of therapy. For someone to promise a percentage type cure for this issue, for instance I had someone who said they had experienced a 90 percent permanent – in all caps PERMANENT – reduction of their same-sex attraction. How can we quantify that? How can you even know that that’s what you have experienced? And what if at some point you fall to 85 percent or 70 percent? That, I think, sets people up for unrealistic expectations and is something that I’m not willing to offer when we’re sharing these types of messages or presenting what was presented to me.
When I said on national television I still struggle, a reparative therapist called me and said if you’ll come into therapy with me I can cure you of your temptations and attractions 100 percent. And then there are the offers of using homosexual pornography within the therapeutic process to help people understand why they’re struggling. And then there are encouragements to use heterosexual pornography or heterosexual images to encourage heterosexual attraction. I find it a golden idol, honestly, where we have been hypocritical to ask people to resolve this issue in a way that we haven’t encouraged other people with other struggles to resolve. I’m looking at offering biblical holiness, not an unrealistic expectation for people that will leave them disappointed.
CP: How does that look like on a practical level at Exodus? If somebody comes into Exodus now and they’re saying they’re struggling with same-sex attraction, how does this new discipleship or Christ-centered model look like?
Chambers: It’s really an encouragement of discipleship, it looks like anything else that we’re offering to anyone else, any other person struggling with any other issue in their life. It’s about pursuing a relationship with Christ. For some that will mean getting the help or expertise of a counselor that can help them walk through and navigate through some of the traumatic things that they’ve been through in their life. But to say that people who have same-sex attractions are the only group of people who need to go to a therapist to completely resolve those attractions isn’t something I find biblically accurate.
It says in this world you will have trouble in John 16:33 but take heart you can have peace in me because I’ve overcome the world. I think for believers you know we are helping people pursue holiness through a relationship with Christ, through biblical community in their local church, through honesty and transparency, sharing what it is that troubles them, being accountable. But this isn’t just for people with same-sex attractions it’s for all people in the church. And I think that’s really where we need to be more consistent as believers. Exodus will do that for people who come to us for help. But we will encourage the church to do that in general for anyone and everyone who’s seeking to be a mature believer in Christ.
CP: So you want the church to play a much bigger role in this.
Chambers: This is the church’s job. This is who we are as the body of Christ to reach out to people who are in need, who are struggling, who need to be discipled and to pursue Christ in their life. That’s good news and the church should offer it wholeheartedly to anyone.
CP: Do you feel this issue is just so complex and complicated that you easily get misunderstood?
Chambers: I do. I think we’ve made it a golden idol. I think we in the church have treated it differently than we’ve treated anything else. We’ve made it bigger; the resolution for this needs to be bigger than for other people. I think we have to do a better job than we’ve done. So I do think there is, people rush to judgment and rush to clarify their point on this issue in ways that they don’t’ rush to judgment and to clarity on other issues.
CP: Are there any other misunderstandings that you want to clarify or anything you want to add to this?
Chambers: I think, again, if someone wants to know what I believe then look at my life. I am pursuing Christ wholeheartedly 100 percent. I don’t need a theologian or a set of man-made beliefs to guide me in my daily life. I’m grateful for people’s opinions but I choose to surrender and to serve Christ and Christ alone and in that my life has changed. My beliefs and my desires have changed. They have come into alignment with who he is and who he created you to be. And that’s a wonderful thing and that’s what we will always offer at Exodus.
On one side are folks who seem to think that homosexuality is the one unredeemable sin. Evidently God is cool with every other sexual sin (Christian men I'm looking at you; how many of you would never show your face again if your true internet history was shown to the congregation?) but has an "Ew" factor that won't allow Him to forgive homosexuality. Fact is, just as there are men and women who struggle with temptations like porn and attraction to people other than their spouses I'm sure there are homosexuals who know Jesus as their personal savior, know his rules on life conduct, but still struggle with temptation through attraction to the same sex. I'll be honest, I have an "Ew" factor that makes it hard for me to see all sexual sins as the same but part of being a Christian is allowing logic to rule over feelings.
On the other hand are folks who seem to think that evidently homosexuality is the one sexual sin it isn't cool to recognize as inappropriate. I don't think I've ever seen mainstream organizations representing people shacking up, people who have recreational sex outside of marriage, or porn addicts claiming that Christians are bigots trying to crush them. Christians have been able to be friends with these types of folks while recognizing their behavior is a sin. Evidently though, if a Christian is a friend with a homosexual now they somehow see the Church as bigoted. Frankly I believe that this is due to an effort by those who don't like the Church. They have been around as long as Christianity and have tried many ways of deligitimizing the Church. Homosexuality is the current vehicle they use. If they can convince the majority of folks that homosexuality is a normal and healthy lifestyle they can create a thought process that since Christianity thinks something is wrong with homosexuality there must be something wrong with Christianity. Of course, there are none of these folks on FR but the world isn't FR.
very concerned about statements made by Chambers over the last year that assure Christians who persistently engage in homosexual behavior that their salvation is guaranteed.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Unless they’ve changed their Doctrine, Southern Baptist (the largest Christian denomination in America) believe in the hyper-Calvinistic teaching of Unconditional Eternal Security; i.e. you got saved when you were 12 years old and nothing you do can cause you to lose your salvation..... Matter of fact, a guy I’ve been talking to who is into doing and selling drugs told me that not too long ago. He said: “I got saved years ago and I know I’ll be in heaven.” Well, I’m not his judge. But, what’s the difference in this guy telling homosexuals that their salvation is secure and a Baptist preacher telling the drug dealer or alcoholic or heterosexual adulterer that their salvation is secure???? I had a guy tell me one time: “If I’m in the middle of an adulterous act and I die, I’ll go to heaven.” Once again, I AM NO MAN’S JUDGE. I say again: What’s the difference? Sin is sin.
But, I’m no Doctor of Theology so what do I know.
Why is it they picked “12 years old” as the “salvation” year? Sounds pretty random.
On one side are folks who seem to think that homosexuality is the one unredeemable sin. Evidently God is cool with every other sexual sin (Christian men I’m looking at you; how many of you would never show your face again if your true internet history was shown to the congregation?) but has an “Ew” factor that won’t allow Him to forgive homosexuality. Fact is, just as there are men and women who struggle with temptations like porn and attraction to people other than their spouses I’m sure there are homosexuals who know Jesus as their personal savior, know his rules on life conduct, but still struggle with temptation through attraction to the same sex. I’ll be honest, I have an “Ew” factor that makes it hard for me to see all sexual sins as the same but part of being a Christian is allowing logic to rule over feelings.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I fully agree, and it doesn’t just apply to sexual sin.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
“Where have your accusers gone?”
Love the sinner, hate the sin. We should make the distinction between loving the sinner (the individual gay person in this case), and hating the institutionalized sin of Homosexuality.
Jesus says the same words ~ "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and I guarantee you Bloomberg would have gotten a bigger rock!
He was lucky he had a crowd of people who could see themselves as sinners.
Exactly. A homosexual might reach heaven if he refrains from sinful acts of homosexual behavior.
An unrepentant sinner has little chance of salvation.
"Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God. " 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Well I hope you never had sex before you were married, never looked at a pornographic image, or felt attraction to somebody else’s spouse or else you’re toast by your logic. If someone claimed to be a saved Christian but pursued a active homosexual lifestyle with no regrets I’d have to talk to them as a brother in Christ regarding what they were doing but I won’t subscribe to the idea that having homosexual feelings will keep someone from being saved.
How about, if gay Christians continue what they're doing if that's what they believe, even though the Bible seems pretty clear on specifics sin, and when they stand in judgment (just like all of us will) and see the outcome.
man is fallible, so they keep on asking man, “is what they're doing is wrong”? And like all sinners seek to justify what they do.
Maybe it's time to address other issues that we face, like an out-of-control government hell-bent on destroying what we have.
"Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God. " 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
O' ye of little biblical knowledge, and even less understanding...
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit
Regardless of the sins we ALL commit on a daily basis, we are joined to the Lord, SPIRITUALLY, not physically...
And while yet we continue in sin in the flesh daily, the Lords instructs us otherwise...
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
As Christians, we are no longer under condemnation...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
And you say that if we are Christians, we will walk after the Spirit???
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The apostle Paul knew better than that...Be good if some of you guys learned that as well...
"Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God. " 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
O' ye of little biblical knowledge, and even less understanding...
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit
Regardless of the sins we ALL commit on a daily basis, we are joined to the Lord, SPIRITUALLY, not physically...
And while yet we continue in sin in the flesh daily, the Lords instructs us otherwise...
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
As Christians, we are no longer under condemnation...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
And you say that if we are Christians, we will walk after the Spirit???
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The apostle Paul knew better than that...Be good if some of you guys learned that as well...
"Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God. " 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
O' ye of little biblical knowledge, and even less understanding...
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit
Regardless of the sins we ALL commit on a daily basis, we are joined to the Lord, SPIRITUALLY, not physically...
And while yet we continue in sin in the flesh daily, the Lords instructs us otherwise...
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
As Christians, we are no longer under condemnation...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
And you say that if we are Christians, we will walk after the Spirit???
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The apostle Paul knew better than that...Be good if some of you guys learned that as well...
Why is it they picked “12 years old” as the “salvation” year? Sounds pretty random.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Only thing I can figure is that is the age of the Jewish Bar Mitzvah?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.