Posted on 07/21/2012 3:08:36 PM PDT by NYer
Are they expecting all jews will convert? No. But a few will. The Messianic Jewish movement shows this.
[21] And the king sent Judi that he should take the volume [Jeremiah's]: who bringing it out of the chamber of Elisama the scribe, read it in the hearing of the king, and of all the princes that stood about the king. [22] Now the king sat in the winter house, In the ninth month: and there was a hearth before him full of burning coals. [23] And when Judi had read three or four pages, he cut it with the penknife, and he cast it into the fire, that was upon the hearth, till all the volume was consumed with the fire that was on the hearth. [24] And the king and all his servants that heard all these words were not afraid, nor did they rend their garments.(Prophecy of Jeremias, 36)
We must pray for the conversion of the Jews. Peace will be the consequence.
The purpose of the Holy Inquisition was not to convert the Jews but to drive the false converts out.
There would have been no false converts if the government hadn't pressured Jews into "converting" in the first place.
That's not exactly correct. 'False converts' were killed, ordinary Jews were forced out.
That excuses lying about your faith?
“Cristian love, as you well know, is always conditional on one one surrendering to their will.”
Doctrinally false. Practically false.
“It is foolish and dangerous for Jews and Israel to trust Christians or neopagan Western Civilization.”
Most Christians are friends of Israel and Jews.
“This wasn’t an attempt to convert anyone, this was just a provocation.”
I agree.
Yes, the Jews were expelled from Spain in 17c., but not by the Church. The issue here is the desire of the Church (including the likely Protestants who sent the New Testaments to that dolt) that the Jews should convert. This desire is natural to any religion, and so long as it is done by persuasion, — such as preaching or sending literature,— may not, in justice, be outlawed, let alone having stupid tantrums about it in what is supposed to be a lawmaking institution.
Part of that is true, part of it is not. Fundamentalist Protestants literally have no knowledge of chrstian history, since they insist "true chrstianity" disappeared long ago and was not revived until the Reformation (they were mormons before mormonism existed!). So far as they know, Judaism and chrstianity are simply two stages in the same religion and have always been friends. You have no idea what it did to me learn the truth.
Fundamentalist Protestants have no history of their own. They have no Constantine, no Roland, no El Cid, no Sir Galahad, no St. George. All they have is the TaNa"KH. That is "their" history. They almost have it memorized, yet they insist that all the ancient Israelites were actually "born again chrstians" just as they are!
Fundamentalist Protestants need and deserve to be told the truth. They are the only people in the world (aside from Orthodox Jews) who accept the historicity of the Hebrew Bible (albeit for the wrong reasons). They should not be chrstians at all. They should be Noachides. This is what I've been saying for almost 22 years now. Only the Sages of Israel can expound the Hebrew Bible authoritatively and in the non-Jewish world only Fundamentalist Protestants really accept the Hebrew Bible (in a way).
Let me tell you something about myself. Even when I was a Fundamentalist Protestant I wanted Jews to be Jews. I wanted Israel to be a Jewish State (not a bastardized "Jewish/democratic state"). I was a Fundamentalist Protestant when I wrote a letter to the late Rabbi Me'ir Kahana' (zt"l; Hy"d). And he actually wrote me a very short note back, handwritten (his handwriting was very hard to read; almost as bad as mine).
Do you honestly think I'm the only one like this? Fundamentalist Protestantism has people scattered throughout it just waiting to be told the truth. Why do you think they keep Jewish holidays and wear tallitot? I know . . . you think the only reason they do it is to trick Jews into becoming chrstians. And unfortunately, that is part of it. But it's not all of it. These people are starved for Jewish truth! They actually want to be Jewish. The chrstianity they're trying to "restore" is an ahistorical, "Jewish chrstianity," not the real thing. As stubborn, shortsighted, and naive as they can be, they are not evil. They are not "the enemy." Yes, they have to be watched carefully and they are not going to save Israel (only HaShem will do that). But they aren't evil. And for all the arguing I do with them on this forum I still say that.
You're right . . . `Esav cannot be trusted. But there's more to `Esav than Fundamentalist Protestants. Ancient liturgical chrstianity is also `Esav. Western paganism is `Esav. Western classical Greco-Romanism is `Esav. The modern university (so often associated with Jews), that bastard offspring of the ancient Greek academy and medieval Catholicism, is `Esav. The world political system and its secular morality that sits in judgment on HaShem (but which so many Jews depend on to protect them from big, bad Bible-thumpers) is `Esav. And enlightenment rationalism is also `Esav. Yet the Jewish reaction is too often to act as if the only enemy in existence were Judaeophilic Fundamentalist Protestants and to invoke Voltaire (and anti-Semite), Thomas Jefferson, the First Amendment, and the "enlightenment" as if it were Mashiach sent from Heaven in order to usher in the Golden Age. In fact, most non-Jews associate Jews not with Judaism, but with secularism. It's sad and it's ugly but it's true; and unfortunately, much of the secularization of culture that has taken place since the Sho'ah (and even before) has been done in the name of atoning for and preventing future Jewish suffering. Yet it is not the Jewish mission to secularize the world but to saturate it with holiness. And no amount of experience of being on the receiving end of "theocracy" can change that mission.
I don't suppose anything I've written here makes the slightest bit of sense to you?
This wasn’t an attempt to convert anyone, this was just a provocation.
I agree with this 100%. This was childish, spiteful, and not intended to accomplish anything. And any conventional chrstian who attacks mormonism who doesn't see this is a hypocrite.
::Sigh:: Looks like even on FR I remain the only one of my kind.
Can’t find anything in your post I really disagree with ;)
What an utterly heartless thing to say.
The people in question were put in a situation where living as Jews was almost impossible, so they underwent false conversions in order to stay alive but continued to observe the Torah in secret. They lied to stay alive, not in order to conduct some vast evil conspiracy to convert Spain to Judaism. Shame on you for parroting this nonsense.
Do you think any of those Marranos would have converted if they had been left totally in peace to practice their religion? Any who would have done so would not have been good Jews, and any who would have continued to practice both religions at once would simply have been very sick, confused people.
I thank G-d for that.
I think it is instructive that the Founding Fathers saw themselves truly as like the Jews after the Exodus and modeled themselves accordingly, whereas Fundamentalist Christians see the ancient Jews as having been just like their harsh, humorless selves!
This will put a lot of pressure on the Keneset to react against Christiains in Israel. Would not be suprised if visas become a lot harder to get for those trying to stay for a while in the land.
Jews generally like Americans and like Christians on a secular basis. But obviously there is a lot of religious tension. We generally get along quite well, but once and a while someone without respect pushes the issue. This is a massive lack of respect, and could have been avoided if more people would actually read the Bible before acting out.
The purpose of the Holy Inquisition was not to convert the Jews but to drive the false converts out.
There would have been no false converts if the government hadn’t pressured Jews into “converting” in the first place.
The new testament never had nothing to do with it, but ignoring the new testament is what caused it.
I thank G-d for that.
Just curious, why the G-d? why not God?
Scripture had nothing to do with it. Following 700+ years of Islamic rule Spain had many political and cultural issues in the aftermath. The Spanish monarchy believed that they had driven out the Moors and were the legitimate rulers because it was the will of God. Their claim was that they ruled by divine right. Anyone who denied the Church therefore rejected the authority by which they held their crown.
The secular authorities asked that the Church be the ones to determine who was and was not Catholic. Most of the suspect and accused also prayed that it would the the Church to conduct the Inquiry.
Peace be with you.
First, they lied not to go and live with the other expelled Jews in the remaining Caliphate, not to “stay alive”. Second, sticking with the religion even under pain of death is the standard the Jewish religion, correctly, sets itself (see the books of Maccabees celebrated at Hanukkah). And lastly, we are not discussing the compassion or lack of it that I may have toward the expelled Jews, but rather the proposition set forth by someone you have defended on this thread, that the Spanish Inquisition in 17th c. somehow justifies throwing a bigoted tantrum on the floor of the Knesset in 21st century A.D., — by a member of the government that would not survive one month without the Christian support.
When the legitimacy of a government is based upon religion, then any challenge of the religion is treason against the rulers. This is the reason behind the Inquisition, the various Catholic/Protestant conflicts, and the attitude of Islamic rulers towards heresy.
When the legitimacy of Western governments stopped being based on religion, religious wars abated.
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