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To: Springfield Reformer
"You are a Universalist then?"

No.

"Or at least you reject all that crazy talk about believing in Jesus?"

Who is Jesus and what is this "crazy talk"?

"Is this from your specially custom edited Bible?"

WHat exactly is "this"?

"Or can we find this doctrine in some more generally accepted version?"

What "doctrine"?

"Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

God in Matt 25:31-39 contradicts this simple reading of Paul. God is quite inclusive about who He considers His sheep; they are those that do the will of His Father. He did not exclude those that never knew Him.

39 posted on 08/18/2012 11:06:37 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: spunkets

“God in Matt 25:31-39 contradicts this simple reading of Paul. “


To be righteous, one must first be cleaned by God. Presumably you have told lies, have lusted after women (if you are a man), have not loved the Lord God with all your heart and soul.

The scripture teaches that if we offend in even one part, we are guilty of violating the entire law.

Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

It also teaches that there are NONE who are righteous:

Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Rom 3:10-13 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

So how does one become righteous?

Christ answers:

Joh 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh_6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

The scripture is quite clear that we must eat of His flesh, and drink of His blood, in order to be saved. He literally GAVE His flesh on the cross to take on the sins of the world. As the other scripture I showed you from Christ Himself demonstrates, if you do not eat of this bread or drink of His blood, you are damned already. (Of course, the words that I speak are SPIRIT and LIFE :).)

As for those who never heard of Christ, they will be judged according to their works by God’s perfect judgment according to natural law, which all men have written on their hearts.

Rom 2:12-16 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) (16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Unfortunately, it is a terrible thing to stand before the mighty God on the basis of your OWN “righteousness,” as any fair rendering of even the natural law would reveal every man to be hopelessly depraved. Whatever Christ’s judgment on that day, you can rest assured it will be a fair one. Not fair in your Universalist sense, of course, but fair according to the perfect Judge of the world. If it were not so, what would be the point of any of Christ’s teachings? It is a dangerous thing to depend on your own righteousness, as all men everywhere are depraved in every age and every corner of the globe.


44 posted on 08/18/2012 11:33:22 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: spunkets; RaisingCain
Is Paul wrong here?

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Is Jesus wrong here?

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: [23] That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. [24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Or here?

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

In Matthew 25 it is the same Jesus as in John and Paul, so what he says here cannot contradict what he says there without introducing incoherency into the heart of the Gospel message:

Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. [11] This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. [12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

It is abundantly clear that belief in Jesus is not an optional adornment of “shared values.” It is the essence of the Gospel.

Back to Matthew 25. Notice two things. First, the acts of kindness Jesus cites are directed to a specific group, the brothers (and impliedly sisters) of Jesus. Who are these brothers and sisters? Jesus tells us:

Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. [48] But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? [49] And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! [50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Well and good. It can be agreed there are many who do not do the will of God, especially if that will is understood in terms of good deeds (God’s “values”). There are many then who would be excluded. In fact, according to Paul, everyone:

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Is Paul wrong? If not, how can there be any brothers or sisters of Jesus, let alone any sheep to separate from the goats on that great day of Jesus’ return in glory? We all stand convicted as rebels to the will of God. What then is the will of God that we should do, which if done, makes us a brother or sister of Jesus? Jesus tells us:

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So then we now know who these brothers and sisters of Jesus are. They are us who believe in Jesus. Directly.

So then who are these sheep who do kinds deeds to we who are the brothers and sisters of Jesus? We know they are blessed of the Father (verse 34), that their place in the kingdom was prepared for them “from the foundation of the world,” and that they have received Messiah Jesus, even if only indirectly through one of His local representatives:

Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. [41] He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. [42] And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

From the foregoing it appears that “shared values = salvation” is not a feasible interpretation of the salvation offered in Matthew 25. No one shares God’s values. Only faith in Messiah Jesus, whether direct or indirect, can rescue the lost soul. Therefore, what Peter said remains unalterably true, “there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Peace,

SR

107 posted on 08/19/2012 9:10:36 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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