first, i read both posts, but probably will only have time to respond to this one, but do want to address my using CAPS.
unlike many here, i am not expert on the computer, i am not good and cutting and pasting ( as you are ) and don’t know hold to underline or bolden certain words i want to emphasize. therefore, i use CAPS, because i know how!
LOL, i am not shouting or angry when i do, i can assure you.
i am quite enjoying the exchanges, as i say, it may be the first time many learn of the historical, orthodox faith.
that said, let’s get back to our show!
i am afraid you have me at a disadvantage. you know i hold to the Catholic Faith, therefore in the venacular, i am “Catholic”. you have self described yourself as a “other Christian”, who believes in a local church. not much to go on, many people who i am sure you would widely disagree could describe themself the same way.
so in this post, you speak approvingly of the “authorized version” of the Scriptures. so i may know where you are coming from and can discuss the verse you mention, i have a few questions:
1. who “authorized” the authorized version.
2. under or by what authority did this authorization come from.
3. what basis was chosen for the books in the OT.
4. what basis was used or chosen for the books in the NT.
5. how does Acts 2:38 read in this authorized version.
6. was this version authorized by your local congregation.
once i know the answers to these 6 questions about this “authorized version”, i will be more than happy to discuss Mary and her need of a Savior.
special note to all those following this exchange that have been taught Catholics worship Mary, think she is divine, or think she did not need a Savior............stay tuned, you will be sorely disapointed!
I don't do much cutting and pasting. How I learned to format a message here was to learn a few simple tricks of using a little H(yper) T(ext) M(arkup) L(anguage), which is a way of making your text do what you want by using some simple HTML code rules. FR hinted that I learn to do this, so I did. This is not difficult. You can teach yourself enough in a few minutes to do what you want. Juat go to this HTML tutorial site:
http://www.davesite.com/webstation/html/
and go down to "HTML Code MiniChapter X1: Introduction to HTML Coding [ How It Works! ]," click on it, and begin. It's all self-explanatory and you won't have a problem. Do this right away, and you'll be gratified.
therefore, i use CAPS, because i know how!
I used to be able to burp on demand, but that's not the way to get attention in a board meeting. A word in uppercase used sparsely for effect would not be objectionable, but long phrases and sentences have the same joyous acceptance as noisy flatulence in church. Netiquette is the thing here.
Regarding your questions, this is the best I know about them, offhand.
1. who “authorized” the authorized version.
An English committee of 54 scholars adept in Bible languages was commissioned to review the versions already available, and from them to construct a version in the English vernacular acceptable to the Crown to be authorized for general use by the Church of England, the King being its titular head. This was done in the time of James Stuart, King of England (I) and of Scotland (VI). It was publicly released in 1611 AD.>p? 2. under or by what authority did this authorization come from.
Look up and read the introduction to the volume as published by Oxford University. The work was done by order of King James I given during the Hampton Court Conference in January 1604. The English Crown is still the owner and proprietor of the copyright privileges.
3. what basis was chosen for the books in the OT.
The basis for the text was the Masoretic text of Ben Chayyim, and the Deuterocanonical books were included in the original version until about, say, the turn of the 29th century, IIRC. More recently, these uninspired but historical books have not been included. I think the book titles and divisions were those carried over from the Great/Bishop's/Geneva Bibles format, but have no functionally different content than that of the Vulgate or DRB, AFIK.
4. what basis was used or chosen for the books in the NT
The Greek text basis for the New Testament of the AV/KJV was the textform assembled by the Romanist "Desiderius" Erasmus, which has been given the name "Textus Receptus," or, "Received Text." It is a selection reflecting the Byzantine Majority Textform, and has that canonicity.
5. how does Acts 2:38 read in this authorized version.
The AV Acts 2:38 reads exactly as follows (my quotation marks supplied):
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
6. was this version authorized by your local congregation.
The (English) Authorized Version, commonly also called the King James Version is the only English version permitted for congregational use in quotation, instruction, preaching, or worship in the local church of which I am a constituent. This rule is very common to the independent fundamental immersionist Bible churches found throughout the US.
However, the AV (being like the DRB uninspired) can be a little ambiguous in the English rendering of the meaning of the Greek that would be clearer to the 1st century reader, Greek or Hellenic Jew, for whom the common language, Koine, was natural and needing no translation. Therefore, correct use of the AV in public instruction will often require an exegesis of the Greek to catch some of the sense not quite precisely carried over in the translation.
A very helpful companion to the AV is Wittman's "A Precise Translation" (herinafter "APT") which complements the AV in order to identify the fuller meanings of action projected by the verbs from the voice, tense, and mood indicated in the Greek text. There is also a need to use the precise meanings consistently which indicate the nuances of Greek words which have prompted the selection of a particular English expression.
Sometines the English translations have elected different synonyms for the same Greek word, or used the same English word for two or more Greek words which, though improving the flow, may undermine the precise quality of which the Greek is capable, if the meaning is surrendered by careful exegesis.
This is why I like to use the APT in helping me to understand a passage more closely to the way, say, that Timothy understood Paul to be writing to him. In the rendering of Acts 2:38 a great deal of controversy has developed because of ambiguity related to the use of the Greek words repent = μετανοηω, a verb; and εις, a preposition connecting "baptism" and "remission of sins"; and the word αφιημι = "forgive, remit, abandon," and its noun form αφιεσι = "remission, forgiveness, abandonment."
The treatment of εις in Thayer's lexicon commands 70 1/2 column inches, so one surmises that a precise translation of this word in Acts 2:38 will take more than a little study, for there is a very fine shade of meaning there, that will be missed and a whole doctrine built that is really not consistent with the overall revelation and method of God's dealings with mankind. Be warned.
That is why, in this debate, I preferred to quote the APT translation: Of course, equating regeneration as being a consequence of and concurrent with the administration of water to effect spiritual birth flies in the face of John 1:12,13:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (AV).
"But as many as receive* Him, to them He gave authority to become children^ of God, namely to the ones continually committing~ trust unto his name, the ones who were begotten, not of** bloods, neither of** fleshly determined will, nor of** a ^^man's determined will, but~~ |begotten| by means of God." (APT as well as I can manage the notations which are: * to take, gnomic aorist; ^ emphatic relationship; ~ present tense; ** ek = preposition naming the source; ^^ husband, anarthrous; ~~ conjunction of contrast: |..| understood; noted as anarthrous are authority, children, God)
You see the APT does not conflict with or exaggerate the AV sense, but rather refines it. Furthermore, the APT is not based on the Alexandrian Westcott/Hort Critical Text. It is based on the Pierpont/Robinson Majority Byzantine Textform. with careful notes also giving the Textus Receptus wherever a division occurs, so the two translations use the sane Greek text basis.
In addition, the APT volume has a nice glossary of grammatical terms. One application is that for the particular foundational use of the preposition εις in Acts 2:38:
foundational use: the use of εις in which the action contemplated or cited is based on a previous action and therefore εις is translated 'on the basis of' or 'based upon.'
οτι μετανοησαν εις το κηρυγμα ιονα (Mt. 12:41)
"because they repented on the basis of Jonah's proclamation as an herald"
"Repent* at once! and be baptized each one of you by using the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of forgiveness of sins!" (Acts 2:38 APT)(* aorist, active, imperative)
This then shows agreement with John 1:12,13 as the Holy Ghost's inscripturated command is translated into English (AV) and more precisely refined (APT), an exegetical tool.
See? or, ... not?
i am quite enjoying the exchanges, as i say, it may be the first time many learn of the historical, orthodox faith.
This is of the historical, orthodox New Testament Faith of the FIRST local independent, Biblically authorized, autonomous, priesthood-of-all-believers, two-ordinances, individualized soul-accountability, saved membership, two church offices, and separated unto good works assembly prototype, ministering missionaries both locally as well as to the uttermost part of the earth. N'est ce pas?
And that is the kind of candlestick of The Lord to which I owe allegiance, practicing immersion on the basis of (εις) abandoned (remitted, forgiven, cf. αφιημι) sins and unto (εις = with a view toward) discipleship of the repentant, saved, converted and regenerated, believer, who is determined to abandon the old worldly, sin-numbed life.