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To: Mad Dawg
Do you happen to have "Bibleworks"?

No, but I have Logos ver. 1.6 purchased many years ago, e-Sword (free and extremely popular with downloadable textforms, lexicons, translations, and commentaries), Scrivener's Textus Receptus, Nestle's 1904 critical text, several English translations, Wittman's "The Gospels -- A Precise Translation," Strong's and Young's Concordances, and many other reference works; plus the whole wwweb.

With you up to the last sentence. It can be one of the premises of a debate. And the debate could be about many things, for example whether and how ἡ κτίσις is good.

I certainly do not neglect that The God made man(kind) in His Image (and therefore, me); thus eminently gifted with reason. But reason is not all of life and experience. Emotion is not necessarily suject to reason. Neither is morality. Reason is a tool, not the end. I found it interesting to read of Justin Martyr, of his conversion:

"Subsequently, he adopted Platonism after encountering a Platonist thinker who had recently settled in his city. Some time afterwards, he chanced upon an old man, possibly a Palestinian or Syrian Christian,[7] in the vicinity of the seashore, who engaged him in a dialogue about God, and spoke of the testimony of the prophets as more reliable than the reasoning of philosophers."

Of course, it was he and others like him that led apostates into error through knitting Platonic philosophy with the true apostolic faith, thus poisoning it. (And remarking on that, as I possess a doctorate of philosophy, which did not directly lead me to persistent committed trust in the Person and Work of The Lord Jesus Christ.)

That led a little further to reading about his First Apology, addressed to the then Roman Emperor, embodying the barest articles of The Faith; and thence to a summation of the doctrine and definition of "logos", which may be of interest to you.

But that's not the meat of the disagreement. Isn't the real question about the extent of the corruption of man's reason? It SEEMS you are suggesting ἡ ανακαίνωσις is a kind of end of reason. I think it is the restoration of right reason.

I'm saying that through Sin as a master, the human's ability to reason is so utterly debilitated that he can never find his way to The God through reasoning; neither can he have fellowship with the Uniplural Triune Godhead nor understand The God's mind through his bent reasoning mechanism. Sort of like me, on my level, trying to communicate with some other so deep in the folds of lysergic acid diethyl amide that my sense makes no sense to him, hence to him it is nonsense.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith The Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Is. 55:8-9)

But in invitation He says, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, thet shall be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Now, what kind of reasoning is that!? It is Godly, spiritual reasoning, to which we must have our sin-wounded reasoning transformed:

So where you say "quenching and bypassing," I would say "redirecting, freeing, revivifying, indeed, renewing."

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of The God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto The God, which is your reasonable (logikos) service, And be not conformed to this world (this age, aionon); but be ye transformed by the renewing (metamorpohosis) of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of The God." (Rom. 12:1,2)

Without this metamorphosis, a caterpillar-to-butterfly permanent change, one will be blind and deaf to spiritual communication with The God Who does the seeking and saving. Yes, he appeals to one's heart, but only through suppressing the rejection to such Godly wooing by the Satan-blinded, sin-soaked, falsely-reasoning mind gained in the Garden of Eden. Like my mind did, for 34 years, inherited at conception.

He does it by planting the generative Seed, His Word, into a human's heart, where it may sprout if it is not a stony, scorched, or weed-choked heart. (1 John 3:9, Mt. 13:3-9,18-23)

Who speaks for The God?

The Preacher!

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by God's (spoken) word (hremata)." (Rom. 10:17)

And who responds? The soul verbally instructed in righteousness in The Faith, which says:

"But what sayeth it? The (spoken) word (hrema) is near thee, even in thy mouth, and in thine heart: that is, the (spoken) word of The Faith, which we preach; That if (and it may be) thou shalt confess (aorist, active, subjunctive) with thy mouth, 'Jesus! Lord!' and shalt believe (aorist, active, subjunctive) in thine heart that The God hat raised Him from the dead ones, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ... For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom. 12:8-10, 13)

Doen't say much about a need for water baptism to precede salvation, does it? There is no passage in The Christ's words or those of the New Testament writers by which baptismal regeneration must be accepted. It is only by a misleading interpretation of ambiguity that such a doctrine can be derived, when that is disproved by the greater context of the whole.

It is with humanistic, depraved reasoning that as-yet carnal humans under influence of their father, the god of this world, come to such naturalistic fictions as: pantheism; salvation conferred to infants by water baptism; a second chance for heaven after physical death; adding to the perfect works of Christ by works of supererogation; earning one's way to heaven; Jesus and Satan being brothers; The Father The God just being a glorified human; an Allah who had no Son being The True God; worship of thee Sun by sacrifice of children; ancestor worship; and atheistic worship of one's own reasonings, morality, and abortion,etc.; to name a few of the more important roads leading away from the Cross.

With a heavy, humbly-disposed heart toward hoi polloi, the many, the lost, those unloving because of the abundance of iniquity --

63 posted on 09/03/2012 9:45:09 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them NOT!)
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To: imardmd1; Mad Dawg

St. Justin Martyr:
“...Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: in the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior, Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [Jn 3:3]... The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles... and in order to obtain in the water the remission of past sins...” (First Apology [148-155 AD])

Justin kept the Catholic Faith received FROM THE APOSTLES and taught baptismal regeneration.


68 posted on 09/03/2012 10:51:51 AM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: imardmd1
Here's something from PapaBen XVI:
Faith is not the resignation of reason in view of the limits of our knowledge; it is not a retreat into the irrational in view of the dangers of a merely instrumental reason. Faith is not the expression of weariness and flight but is courage to exist and an awakening to the greatness and breadth of what is real.

Faith is an act of affirmation; it is based on the power of a new Yes, which becomes possible for man when he is touched by God. It seems to me important, precisely amid the rising resentment against technical rationality, to emphasize clearly the essential reasonableness of faith. In a criticism of the modern period, which has long been going on, one must not reproach its confidence in reason as such, but only the narrowing of the concept of reason, which has opened the door to irrational ideologies. The mysterium, as faith sees it, is not the irrational but rather the uttermost depths of the divine reason, which our weak eyes are no longer able to penetrate. It is the creative reason, the power of the divine knowledge that imparts meaning. It is only from this beginning that one can correctly understand the mystery of Christ, in which reason can then be seen to be the same as love.

The first word of faith, therefore, tells us: everything that exists is thought that has poured forth. The Creator Spirit is the origin and the supporting foundation of all things. Everything that is, is reasonable in terms of its origin, for it comes from creative reason. . . The mysterium is not opposed to reason but saves and defends the reasonableness of existence and of man.

Maybe I'll have time to think in the next couple of days. Thanks for keeping this going.
80 posted on 09/03/2012 5:17:51 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Depone serpentem et ab veneno gradere.)
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