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Cardinal Dolan’s Paul Ryan Problem [Amy Sullivan rant]
The New Republic ^ | August 31, 2012 | Amy Sullivan

Posted on 09/04/2012 12:31:37 PM PDT by Alex Murphy

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To: caldera599

Amen Brother
............................................................
After all, when a Catholic Democrat publicly dissents from church teaching or misrepresents it to a large audience, church leaders are quick to call out him or her for the transgression.
............................................................

That’s the biggest batch of Bull sheet I ever read.Pelosi and Biden and have yet to be excommunicated, after earning it a hundred times over.


21 posted on 09/04/2012 2:35:45 PM PDT by Venturer
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To: Alex Murphy
That admiring relationship must make it awkward for the Cardinal when Ryan does things like misrepresent Catholic social teaching or insist that health care is not a right but a privilege

It all depends on how you define "health care".

A man has the right to seek and obtain health care.

That same man does not have the right to have any and all health care provided for him. That would entail requiring healthcare providers (from the doctors to the hospitals to the pharmaceutical companies) to give him treatment.

But there may not be enough doctors and hospitals to do that even if you wanted to, therefore it cannot be of the nature of a "right".
22 posted on 09/04/2012 3:31:21 PM PDT by Dr. Sivana ("I love to watch you talk talk talk, but I hate what I hear you say."-Del Shannon)
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To: paguch
But greed does destroy a soul.

It is a matter of balance, which both sides are liking. One side says that if it drives up profits, no matter what, it is good. One says that all property is theft, and all wealth belongs to those who don't have it.

Both are condemned explicitly in traditional Christian theology. Both are very popular heresies today.

Now, I am not a Catholic. I honestly started looking into the Catholic views because of my mother in law, who is in favor of something called “Christian Socialism” (Distributism under a different name). It isn't quite what it sounds like (for instance, it isn't true socialism, there is private property, but a body controls how much of a given market you can have), but it has the same issues that all systems have. Namely, it will only work if the people in power are angels.

This view is why many religious Catholics feel compelled to vote Democrat. As they move farther down the abortion/ eugenics road, more of them are moving to the GOP. And they are trying like mad to pull them to the left on economics.

It is a situation that seems (to me) like a recipe for a third party. A socially conservative but fiscal liberal party.

23 posted on 09/04/2012 4:24:48 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Elsiejay

It has been so rewarding to have lived during the lifetimes of the Kennedy brothers, dedicated public servants all; to have observed their clearly demonstrated respect for their wives, their children and their marriage vows; their shunning of the perquisites of great inherited material wealth; the manner in which their lives were influenced by the teachings of the religion they professed and the oversight of its prelates.

ROTFL! Believe it or not, there were a few Catholics on FR who tried to convince us (at the time of his funeral) that Kennedy must have had a deathbed conversion. Presumably they couldn't live with the cognitive dissonance that their bishops had given this paragon of Catholic virtues a hero's send-off.

24 posted on 09/04/2012 4:25:27 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: 11th Commandment

It is only because they got the wrong end of the deal. The Bishops were forced to choose between allowing abortion on demand to be paid for by Church funds, or limit their dream of a right to “free” health care.

To be honest, it seems they chose the former. There is very little said about the issue today, and much said about our “duty” to help all the immigrants with out health care (depending on which church/diocese you attend).


25 posted on 09/04/2012 4:29:25 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: caldera599
"Ryan does things like misrepresent Catholic social teaching or insist that health care is not a right but a privilege."

Ignorance, but of the typical, non-surprising sort. This particular error (above) rests on a secular, statist, and univocal understanding of the word "right", as someing which it is obligatory for the State to supply. This yields the flalse conclusion, "If health care is a right, then the state is unjust if it does not provide it." Actually, the human right to health care, in Catholic usage, means that it is a good of the person;, satisfied in various ways which are proper to the various levels of society.

"Society," in Catholic parlance, does not mean "the State." It comprises many social groupings at different levels: families, parishes, insurers, employers, health-sharing associations, labor and business organizations, charitable and fraternal organizations, medical schools, hospitals, clinics, professional associations, local and regional, public and private.

That's where most of these commentators, liek Amy Sullivan, make their first and most pervasive mistake. "The State" is so deep and so central in their assumptions that they don't even realize they're treating "State" and "society" as if they were synonyms.

26 posted on 09/04/2012 4:40:03 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The Holy Catholic Church: the more Catholic it is, the more Holy it is.")
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To: redgolum

Many do not realize what Paul Ryan is about. He is saying work with me on subsidiarty and solidarity.

Subsidiarity means using the local food bank or St. Vincent De Paul Society food outlet rather than going on federal food stamps. Local government first — then move up the ladder if you must.

Solidarity is nothing more than using common sense. I really don’t think Dolan is opposed to this. In fact he came out in favor of Paul Ryan after the nomination.

This is just a rant by Amy Sullivan who doesn’t know what Catholic Ministry really is. Check out the “Holiness” link below — Ryan explains it much better than I can.


27 posted on 09/04/2012 4:54:15 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All
Paul Ryan at Prayer
With Ryan on the Ticket, Spotlight Focuses on the Catholic Church
Does Ryan have a “Catholic problem”?
Paul Ryan Urges Catholics to Act Before Religious Freedoms Erode
Wisconsin bishop praises Paul Ryan, discusses intrinsic evils, prudential judgments

Paul Ryan urges Catholics to act before religious freedoms erode
Dolan: Ryan Is a ‘Great Public Servant’ (great insight into Ryan's views)
Paul Ryan’s Bishop Defends Him Amid Attacks on His Application of Church Teaching
Paul Ryan, Catholic Who Looks to Church's Social Teaching, Tapped as Romney Running Mate
The other Ryan: the candidate’s wife, Janna
Paul Ryan, Joe Biden, and Liberal False Equivalence
Ryan as VP Pick Continues Election Year Focus on Catholicism
Paul Ryan Faces Left-Wing Religious Attack
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Holiness (Paul Ryan)
Paul Ryan: Midwesterner, Catholic, intellectual

28 posted on 09/04/2012 4:57:17 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: caldera599
"Ryan does things like misrepresent Catholic social teaching or insist that health care is not a right but a privilege."

Ignorance, but of the typical, non-surprising sort. This particular error (above) rests on a secular, statist, and univocal understanding of the word "right", as someing which it is obligatory for the State to supply. This yields the flalse conclusion, "If health care is a right, then the state is unjust if it does not provide it." Actually, the human right to health care, in Catholic usage, means that it is a good of the person;, satisfied in various ways which are proper to the various levels of society.

"Society," in Catholic parlance, does not mean "the State." It comprises many social groupings at different levels: families, parishes, insurers, employers, health-sharing associations, labor and business organizations, charitable and fraternal organizations, medical schools, hospitals, clinics, professional associations, local and regional, public and private.

That's where most of these commentators, liek Amy Sullivan, make their first and most pervasive mistake. "The State" is so deep and so central in their assumptions that they don't even realize they're treating "State" and "society" as if they were synonyms.

29 posted on 09/04/2012 5:36:26 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The Holy Catholic Church: the more Catholic it is, the more Holy it is.")
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To: what's up
"I would love to see Ryan's vision win over that of the Pope's ..."

Most of us are not as conversant as we ought to be with the Popes' teachings about subsidiarity, the moral obligation to invest responsibility in the lowest, most local, and most voluntary level that can adequately handle the necessary tasks. For instance Pope Benedict's strong passage about subsidiarity in his encyclical, Caritas in Veritate:

Subsidiarity is first and foremost a form of assistance to the human person via the autonomy of intermediate bodies. Such assistance is offered when individuals or groups are unable to accomplish something on their own, and it is always designed to achieve their emancipation, because it fosters freedom and participation through assumption of responsibility. Subsidiarity respects personal dignity by recognizing in the person a subject who is always capable of giving something to others. By considering reciprocity as the heart of what it is to be a human being, subsidiarity is the most effective antidote against any form of all-encompassing welfare state.

Let the people say "Amen."

30 posted on 09/04/2012 5:49:52 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The Holy Catholic Church: the more Catholic it is, the more Holy it is.")
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To: Alex Murphy; Elsiejay

Tagline


31 posted on 09/04/2012 5:54:46 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops." - St. John Chrysostom, Bishop)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
subsidiarity is the most effective antidote against any form of all-encompassing welfare state.

Well, I'm glad the Pope is against an "all-encompassing" welfare state as he puts it (I'm sure many leftists would not advocate the "all-encompassing" bit either...they need some people to actually pay the bills.) However, the Pope's call for free health care is way too encroaching for my taste and seems aligned more with the Democratic position than that of the GOP.

The US Bishops also seemed to lean toward Obamacare before the abortion provisions were put in. Thank God Ryan is not in their camp regarding this.

32 posted on 09/04/2012 6:00:47 PM PDT by what's up
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To: what's up
Quote and/or link where the Pope called for "free health care." With enough context to show whether he was speaking of a charitable response, or a state obligation. Thank you.

"The Church must never abandon the poor... to Holy Mother the State." -- Dorothy Day

33 posted on 09/04/2012 6:07:40 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops." - St. John Chrysostom, Bishop)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Here's one where the US Bishops call healthcare a basic right:

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/god-and-country/2009/08/17/us-bishops-demand-universal-healthcare-without-abortion

The link for the Pope's position where he describes healthcare as an "inalienable right" is given in Post #1.

34 posted on 09/04/2012 6:56:37 PM PDT by what's up
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To: what's up

Calling something a “right” doesn’t equate to it being 100% paid by the federal government, though. You have the right to worship freely, but it doesn’t follow that the government is obligated to build a church for you to exercise that right.


35 posted on 09/04/2012 8:25:20 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

This is what people missed with Caritas Veritate when they got all excited when something was taken out of context. Thank you for the quote.


36 posted on 09/04/2012 8:31:34 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Campion
Calling something a “right” doesn’t equate to it being 100% paid by the federal government, though. You have the right to worship freely

Worship is not something consumers buy. Healthcare is.

When someone says a service or product is a right I shudder.

37 posted on 09/04/2012 9:04:28 PM PDT by what's up
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To: what's up
Thank you, and that exactly what I thought. See http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2926565/posts?page=29#29

It's the mistake of thinking that when the Church says "right," she means "State obligation." A basic mis-reading.

Just an example: It's like when the Church speaks of a "right to marry" and the gays dive in and say "Us too." Wrong-o. You have to define "marry" as the Church does (Sacramental union, man-woman, eligible to marry, e.g. not already married to somebody else, etc.) and "right" to mean "a natural good to which, in a good society, you have access."

If "right" in this context properly meant "the state must supply it," the State would have to supply spouses to all citizens, I suppose!

Catholics of a generation ago would see medical missions, Catholic hospitals, and fraternal insurance (e.g. Knights of Columbus) --- in other words, voluntary, mutual, and charitable inititives --- as responses to the right to health care as the Church uses the term.

38 posted on 09/05/2012 3:04:10 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops." - St. John Chrysostom, Bishop)
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To: what's up

Your ignorance of the actual teaching of the Church; which you confuse with prudential statements made by some within the Church, is causing you reams of problems.


39 posted on 09/05/2012 9:18:38 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Alex Murphy
The link you provided produces a

"The requested page could not be found."

error message.

This one, however, is correct:

Cardinal Dolan's Paul Ryan Problem

40 posted on 09/05/2012 9:27:29 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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