Posted on 09/30/2012 7:48:31 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Not a problem. Perhaps I quibble, but I think the philosophical or theological issue is simply this: Do humans have a defined nature or essence beyong simply being generally sinful? I have free will. I can do anything. I can be anything. My choices are my own, and many of my choices are mistakes. I wrestle with gluttony more than some other sins. On the whole, lust is not a sin that I wrestle with all that much (happily married). Different people are tempted by different things. I don’t know that their personal temptations really reflect on any particular “essence” of their nature.
1 Timothy 8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
Sodomy means sodomy. This cannot be explained away. 1Cor 6:9 says both homosexuality and sodomy just to be clear.
You don’t have to be much of an essentialist to go further than Vidal, though. I don’t assume you object to calling people Republicans or doctors, for instance, based on what they do. I figure sexual orientation to be more basic than your occupation or party affiliation. Not that I’m an orientation essentialist along the lines of the rainbow activists. Just that attraction to and congress with hims or hers can be very consistent.
Anyway, if all we were allowed to say is that we’re sinful humans describing humanity would be knida boring.
RE: At least the young man is studying Scripture. He may find the truth.
2 Peter 3:15-16
5 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Ronald Reagan was a Democrat. Then he smartened up and became a Republican. It wasn't hard to do. One can say "I 'am' a Democrat" without denying the possibility of change.
Some folks like candy. Then they become diabetic and the candy has to go. One can say "I 'am' a candy lover" without actually eating candy.
Some folks like their wine. Then they like it too much and they struggle with alcoholism. Some win that struggle and some do not. Now, some folks do say "I 'am" an alcoholic and I cannot change. I may never drink again, but I will always "be" an alcoholic."
Homosexuality may be like that. It's not like "being" a Democrat, or "being" a candy lover. It's like having a strong and relentless temptation toward alcohol. On the whole, society recognizes that fighting that temptation is worthwhile.
But the homosexuals have convinced society that their little temptation needs to be applauded. They say their homosexuality is essential to their being. It cannot be changed. It cannot be fought. Indeed, they wish to embrace that sin with actual pride.
I guess I like Gore Vidal's approach because he was unapologetic about just choosing to be that way. He didn't have to be that way. It wasn't like he was born that way. He just liked it that way.
I found that refreshing and honest.
RE: Gore Vidal
By the time he was 25, he had already had more than 1,000 sexual encounters with both men and women, he boasted in his memoir “Palimpsest.”
Mr. Vidal tended toward what he called “same-sex sex,” but frequently declared that human beings were inherently bisexual, and that labels like gay (a term he disliked) or straight were arbitrary and unhelpful.
For 53 years, he had a live-in companion, Howard Austen, a former advertising executive, but the secret of their relationship, he often said, was that they did not sleep together.
I see the destruction Peter is talking about being not a destruction of the individual but that of the 'old man', redeemed through repentance of sin. The Lord loves all and wishes all to His kingdom. Faith and salvation is a path and process.
Actually, I don't believe that's correct.
“You have heard the commandment that says, ‘You must not commit adultery.’But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. So if your eye—even your good eye—causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your hand—even your stronger hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."
--Matthew 5:27-30, NLT
Even heterosexuals thinking about lusting after each other is a sin. It requires forgiveness. Homosexuals lusting after each other is easily as bad. Yet few seriously discuss full-on acceptance of adultery. Homosexuality, however, gets quite a full-court press for acceptance for some reason.
“Lust” is a sin. Looking or being attracted, isn’t.
Sadly, he's not looking for truth but for loopholes.
A lot of people don’t believe in hell either but that doesn’t that they won’t be there!
A lot of people don’t believe in hell either but that doesn’t mean that they won’t be there!
It's true that there are "internal acts" which are deliberate: indulging in lustful fantasies, using mental images for self-stimulation, generally running porn in your head. To the entent that they are intentional, these are sins in themselves, whether you ever act on them externally or not.
This is different, however, from unbidden temptations: feelings of desire which distract or torment you, and which you did not choose to harbor in your head. People troubled in this way (whether they are temptations to lust, wrath, jealousy, envy, revenge or whatever) have an obligation to figure out how to drain the power out of these thoughts, change them, or escape them without succumbing.
Bottom line: unbidden feelings are not sins, even if they assail you strongly and persistently. Inward surrender to lustful thoughts, though, is a sin.
I reckon 99% of people experience forbidden appetites at some point in their lives -- maybe for years ---- and have to learn how to achieve a level of inward peace and self-control.
This is a major and gradual achievement, a struggle, and not an easy one for most of us.
Well said!
My question for him and those who think like him is as follows: do you really think the first century Christian church where all the NT books are addressed to initially would have thought homosexual behavior(or any sexual behavior outside the defintion of marriage that Jesus affirmed in Matthew 19:4-6 for that matter) is not sinful?
Whether he likes it or not, the Bible is “hopelessly heteronormative” just as Steve Schlissel described the Bible as “hopelessly patriarchal”. I would also add it’s “hopelessly Jewish” as well.
And that, ladies and germs, IS the real goal behind such unabashed rationalizations and justifications for what Scripture clearly labels as SIN. The devil's operational mode has always been to countermand God's plan. Why should we be surprised when he pulls yet another trick out of his hat? Vines is not nearly as objective as he thinks he is nor is he being at all honest with others OR himself.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap. (Galatians 6:7)
But you have planted wickedness, you have reaped evil, you have eaten the fruit of deception. (Hosea 10:13)
You’re right! We ALL have it in our natures to sin, but having that inclination to do something God calls wrong is not the same as actually committing the wrong act. By this young man’s logic, someone who has a natural inclination to have sex with children, should be allowed, “If it makes him happy.” Is he willing to go that far? Or, what about a woman who wants sex with an animal? Or a man having multiple wives? Where CAN the line be drawn if the only criteria is another’s “happiness”?
If he really wanted to address his temptation, he should first start on steady ground, studying more basic Bible doctrines, then after firming up a relationship with God, let God guide him through adversity.
Instead he has sought to take God’s Provision and reinterpret it by his own carnal mind, only proving a carnal reasoning to himself independent of God the Holy Spirit, thereby scarring his soul even more deeply.
It will be more difficult for him to approach God as though he were a babe, to begin a sanctifying process worked by God and not himself.
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