The Tribulation's Purpose vs. The Church's Nature (Dispensational Caucus)

This is a Dispensational Caucus thread, Jeremiah. We believe what the Holy Spirit wrote in the Scriptures and we take it literally. If God said that the Tribulation will last seven years, then the Tribulation will last seven years. In spite of all of the false doctrines and faddy new theories conjured up by those who don't like the Bible the way it was written so they come up with their own Bible.

Remember, if Scripture has to be denied or discarded for the doctrine to work, then the doctrine is a doctrine of demons.

I agree with the scriptures, so no problem there. I also believe in the dispensations. Where does Jesus say the tribulation period begins at the first seal? Not even sinners recognize judgment hitting until the sixth seal earthquake hits.

What judgment is the first seal? What happens on earth when the first seal is opened?

And it doesn't matter what sinners recognize. The only thing that matters is what Jesus Christ has told us about this time.

What happens when the first seal is opened?

What happens when the first seal is opened?

A man sitting on a white horse is crowned, and he goes out to conquer. This translates to war, which we've seen centuries of. The first four seals aren't unusual considering history. Wars have been common. The Black Plague alone killed over a forth of mankind. This is what makes me wonder if the 1st four seals speak of judgments from the time of Christ's resurrection to the start of the tribulation period.

My reference to the souls under the alter is this: Since the tribulation lasts 7 seven years, why would the souls under the alter ask, "how long" if the tribulation period had already started? Wouldn't they already know the answer if the tribulation period had already started?

Notice there are no references to a seven year time period in Revelation, you'll find time, times and half a time, three and a half days (years actually) and 42 months, all equal three and a half years. So what happened to the other half?

Actually Revelation explains the period of seven years. Here goes...

As you probably know, Revelation is a timeline of a series of events punctuated by parenthetical explanations of the events and characters being portrayed. The book’s time sequence of things is emphasized by the sequential opening of the seals, one after the other, the blowing of the seven trumpets, one after the other, and the pouring out of the vials in order. Probably need to explain all seven years to get the context of the last 3½ years.

1st 3½ years

The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is first mentioned in Revelation 11:7 when he kills the two witnesses after their 3½ year testimony.

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days [=3½ years], clothed in sackcloth... And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Revelation 11:3,7.

The killing of the two witnesses takes place near the end of the trumpet sound of the sixth angel (the second woe) and just before the sound of the seventh angel (the third woe) in Rev. 11:14. This marks the end of the first 3½ years (what Jesus in Matthew 24:8 called “the beginning of sorrows”). So the first 3½ years are from Rev 6:1 through 11:14.

Second 3½ years

From that point on, after the sounding of the seventh angel (the third woe), this beast is allowed to have power to continue 3½ years (Rev 13:5).

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Rev 13:4-5.

The beast first appears at the end of the first 3½ years but is given "power to continue" during the second 3½ years (Rev 13:5).

The verses just preceding Revelation 11:14 map to “the midst of the week” when he takes away the temple sacrifice (Dan 9:27). God calls this former political world ruler (who “conquers” Rev 6:2) “the beast” beginning with Rev 11:7 because in the second 3½ years, “he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thess 2:4) and is therefore worshiped. (Rev 13:4).

The second 3½ years are from Rev 11:15 through 19:21.

Next!

Too bad you took so much of your time chasing rabbits when it might have been put to work advancing the interests of The Kingdom of The God.

The problem is that your argument (rebate-style, that is) is deeply flawed in that it rests on other ephemeral suppositions not in agreement with Holy Scripture.

(1) The seven-year tribulation begins when: (a) The God absolutely determines to initiate His thlipsis on them that trouble those whom He has save (2 Thes. 1:6); (b) the last person to be saved under the New Covenant is saved according to His Own Will (Eph. 2:8); (c) He removes the bodies and souls of all His regenerated believer-disciple-priests from the wrath and corruption to come, as He promised (1 Thess. 2: ), those whom Christ has confessed before The Father and all His angels (Mt. 10:32, Lk. 12:8); (c) The Holy Ghost, the last restraining influential Person left on the Earth removes Himself out of this kosmos back to The Heaven (2 Thes. 2:6,7); (d) the second person of the unholy trinity, no longer hindered, assumes power and is revealed as the man of sin the anti-christ (anti meaning in place of)(Rev. 13:11) proclaiming himself as deity, invests himself as The God in the (reconstructed) Temple of The God (2 Thes. 2:4,8,); and (e) this impostor declares that peace on the earth has been instituted when as in fact the whole kosmos is now at war with The True God, with His Anointed One, and with the Holy Ghost (Jer. 6:14, 1 Thes. 5:3).

Thus begins the Tribulation, the vengeance of The God against the sin-brimmed earth and people, of which the last approximately three and a half years is termed "The Great Tribulation."

(2) The crucifixion took place in 33 AD, not 30 AD, or CE if you prefer that style and cannot bear that Jesus Christ is LORD of all.

(3) You might also take note that The God's progressively revealed Word (not wholly available to Daniel, nor understood by him though he was a diviner)(Dan. 12:9,13). Through the eyes of the Apostles illuminated by the Holy Ghost, we see, sometimes more so than they, as we read, exegete, watch, pray, and experience The God'smessage to us.>p> As studiers and practitioners of The God's dealing with mankind throughout the ages, we do not take counsel with the Talmud (the annals of a now-dead religion) or the Judaic Encyclopedia, the writings of Patristic Fathers (they are also thoughts of dead men, not of the Living Word), nor the Great Catechism of a tradition based on it (an accumulation of some 1700+ years of doctrinal error), and certainly not the musings and mysteries recounted in old wives' tales; for none of those are verbally inspired, inerrant, infallible, plenarily given and complete, providentially preserved, and magnified in The (3rd) Heaven by Him above His Own Name. And it is that that we trust alone in this end of the age time, as ever. And though even our best volume of the English language is widely received, broadly distributed, faithful in translation, marvellous in style and form, yet we do not completely trust in any man's explanation of it without comparison of it with careful exegesis of the original languages with a literal/historical/grammatical interpretation of literal and figurative-literal language; because even the KJV is not inspired. but simply a good translationof the more precise original tongues in which The Holy Ghost elected to express himself to us for the record.

(4) It takes too much effort to reargue all the errors of your propositions, than to move forward with others. in this dedicated and defined dispensational caucus to examine and discuss Biblical truths more deeply and lovingly than discussions such as you have presented.

Perhaps considering moving your disputation to another arena more tolerant of your presuppositions would be more accepting? That would be nice of you.

Or else stay and learn with us without trying to undercut the basic premises, or perhaps come to understand salvational truths?

Respectfully --

Next!

***The problem is that your argument (rebate-style, that is)...***

I meant to say debate-style in the above. I'm sorry -- I missed out on this in rereading my own note.

A man sitting on a white horse is crowned, and he goes out to conquer.

What indication do you have in that text that the rider on a pale horse is anything but a man? Where in the text there do you get the idea that the rider is not actually what Jesus Christ said it was but is something different - something that each person can decide for himself that it is?

And where in Scripture does God authorize man to change the meanings of what He wrote?

Why are you on a dispensatinal caucus thread, again? You are aware of caucus rules, right? If not, they are on the Religion Moderator's homepage. You may want to run over there and read the rules before you continue.

For everyone else who is on here to learn and not to disparage and change and deny Scripture, we can discuss what Christ was telling us when He opens the first seal of judgment of the Tribulation.

Most theologians agree that the rider represents the Antichrist, who will be “given” his crown by a world that elects him to bring about the peace and safety they desperately crave. The Antichrist will promise peace and make a peace treaty with Israel (Daniel 9:27), but in the end it proves to be a false peace that he uses to entrap an unsuspecting world. This fact is described by the prophet Daniel: “And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many”.

The revealing of the Antichrist in the first seal coincides with Daniel's prophecy of the Antichrist "confirming" a "peace covenant" with Israel which begins the seven year Tribulation period.

My reference to the souls under the alter is this: Since the tribulation lasts 7 seven years, why would the souls under the alter ask, "how long" if the tribulation period had already started? Wouldn't they already know the answer if the tribulation period had already started?

God doesn't tell us that does He? At least in my unchanged Bible He doesn't.

The only thing we can do is guess as to why the Tribulation saints ask God when it will be over. My own opinion is that they are just crying out for the Lord to end all of it and set up His kingdom.

I meant to copy you on my post copied and pasted below. Thought you might be interested in a way to explain the seven years explicit in Revelation, which is somewhat hard to articulate, but relatively easy to understand once the pieces are in place...

God bless

As you probably know, Revelation is a timeline of a series of events punctuated by parenthetical explanations of the events and characters being portrayed. The book’s time sequence of things is emphasized by the sequential opening of the seals, one after the other, the blowing of the seven trumpets, one after the other, and the pouring out of the vials in order. Probably need to explain all seven years to get the context of the last 3½ years.

1st 3½ years

The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is first mentioned in Revelation 11:7 when he kills the two witnesses after their 3½ year testimony.

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days [=3½ years], clothed in sackcloth... And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Revelation 11:3,7.

The killing of the two witnesses takes place near the end of the trumpet sound of the sixth angel (the second woe) and just before the sound of the seventh angel (the third woe) in Rev. 11:14. This marks the end of the first 3½ years (what Jesus in Matthew 24:8 called “the beginning of sorrows”). So the first 3½ years are from Rev 6:1 through 11:14.

Second 3½ years

From that point on, after the sounding of the seventh angel (the third woe), this beast is allowed to have power to continue 3½ years (Rev 13:5).

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Rev 13:4-5.

The beast first appears at the end of the first 3½ years but is given "power to continue" for the next 3½ years (“42 months”) (Rev 13:5).

The verses just preceding Revelation 11:14 map to “the midst of the week” when he takes away the temple sacrifice (Dan 9:27). This former political world ruler (who “conquers” Rev 6:2) is what scripture calls “the beast” beginning with Rev 11:7 because in the second 3½ years, “he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thess 2:4) and is therefore worshiped. (Rev 13:4).

The second 3½ years are from Rev 11:15 through 19:21.

1st 3½ years

The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is first mentioned in Revelation 11:7 when he kills the two witnesses after their 3½ year testimony.

It's been a long time since I studied this, but it seems that this beast is not the same one of Rev. 13:1, which rose out of the sea. The sea is the nations (Da. 7:2,3;Rev. 17:15). This beast is a composite of the 3 beasts of Dan. 7:4-6, and is thus like unto the fourth best of Dan. 7:7. Looking from head to toes as consecutive in time, this beast is the modern revival of the ancient Roman Empire. Its identity is the manifestation of the first of the unholy trinity, the anti-God, IIRC.

All the world wonders/admires/follows after (enclitic of direction) this beast, and because they worship the dragon, that old serpent which is the Devil, and Satan (Rev. 12:7,9; 20:2), the power-giving (Eph. 2:2) anti-Spirit (angels are spirits, Heb. 1:7) who empowers the anti-God beast who came up out of the sea.

But then another beast (allo, of the same kind) came out of the earth (metonomy of "them that dwell upon the earth," who were left behind, so to speak), the second person of the unholy trinity, the anti-Christ, a false messiah, anointed by the Devil I suppose (Dan. 7:8; Rev. 12:11-17), a false prophet (Rev. 19:20).

So, it seems that your explanation of "the" beast is not comprehensive in the bestiary panoply, eh? Worth a little more study, perhaps.

Respectfully --

But then another beast (allo, of the same kind) came out of the earth (metonomy of "them that dwell upon the earth," who were left behind, so to speak), the second person of the unholy trinity, the anti-Christ, a false messiah, anointed by the Devil I suppose (Dan. 7:8; Rev. 12:11-17), a false prophet (Rev. 19:20).
So, it seems that your explanation of "the" beast is not comprehensive in the bestiary panoply, eh?

Worth a little more study, perhaps.

I think so. You've answered your own question about this second "beast" which, BTW, has no contrary bearing on the seven-year time timetable laid out in Revelation.

Chapter 13 is part of a four-chapter series of parenthetical explanations, background, and overview of the characters and events about to take place. It (re)introduces the "first" beast (13:1) who rises from the sea (probably a Gentile (as you said sea=nations)). It also introduces "another beast" which comes out of the earth (probably a Jew (land often means Israel)). But this second "beast" causes everyone to worship the first beast (13:12), build an image of the first beast (13:14), and forces those who don't want to starve to death to take the number of the first beast (13:16,17).

So in this overview, we see two beasts in a political setting but it is clear the first has preeminence over the second. The second beast is the false prophet who promotes the first beast who ascends out of the bottomless pit (11:7, 17:8) and receives a kingdom (16:10).