God is Not a Torturer: Debunking the Doctrine of Eternal Torment

ReligiousLiberty.TV ^ | 10/17/2012 | Michael Peabody

[Chaguito]

‘This tortuous existence ‘

Pretty much ended his crediblility right there. Writer doesn’t know definitions of simple words, much less definition of Scripture.

[daniel1212]

Sorry, but Jesus used the word everlasting in relation to hell several times. He either said it and meant it, or he didn’t say it, or he said it and did not mean it, or he lied. Take your pick.

Indeed. In the spiritual realm everlasting means just that. But then there is the annihilationists version:

The Word of God	The annihilationists version
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. " (Revelation 20:10)	"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet — were burned up — and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever — which means for about a moment." (Revelation 20:10)
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. " (Revelation 14:10-11)	"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented — for a moment — with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night — because they no longer exist — who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. " (Revelation 14:10-11)
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: " (Matthew 25:41)	“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire — which you experience for a moment — prepared for the devil and his angels:”
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)	"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment — by just being burned up and delivered from experiencing everlasting punished — but the righteous into life eternal — which means experiencing it." (Matthew 25:46)
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)	"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction — by ceasing to exist — from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:47-48)	"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire — and be burnt up — : Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched — but you will cease to exist." (Mark 9:47-48)
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. " (Luke 16:22-23) [Note that Jesus parables do not use real names, and use real physical realities to correspond to spiritual ones]	"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments — which unlike my other stories, is science fiction because the dead spiritually know nothing — and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. " (Luke 16:22-23)
"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. " (Luke 16:24)	"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame — .which ongoing torment is not real." (Luke 16:24)
"For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. " (Luke 16:28)	"For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment — even though they will only experience annihilation." (Luke 16:28)

[daniel1212]

And ReligiousLiberty.TV is another SDA front.

[Salvation]

There is a heaven and there is a hell and there is a Purgatory.

Are you aware that the references to hell are in the Bible MORE than the references to heaven?

Look up
hell
Gehenna
Sheol
Hades
underworld
netherworld

and I am sure someone will add another word here.

[Salvation]

The Hell of It. A Short Teaching on Hell
Dream of Saint John Bosco: to Hell and Back

Archbishop Chaput addresses the reality of Satan
Letter from Beyond
Catholic Word of the Day: GEHENNA (Hinnom, 10-17-11
To hell with Hell?
Gehenna
Hell Has to Be
The eternity of hell
Hell Is Not Empty and Pedophile Priests Will Go There" (Why Preaching on Hell is Salutary)
The Eternity of Hell
The Four Last Things: Hell

Catholic Caucus: HELL EXISTS AND WE MIGHT GO THERE!
John Calvin’s Worst Heresy: That Christ Suffered in Hell
Natural Calamities Divine Threats & Four Gates of Hell The four Principal Gates of Hell : I Hatred
Pope speaks with priests from his diocese about Heaven and Hell
Whatever Became of Hell? (HAS THE UNQUENCHABLE FIRE BEEN QUENCHED )
One Man's Visit to Hell
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 11: Hell
A Question Of Hell (One Minister Questions Its Existence)
Pope says hell and damnation are real and eternal
The fires of Hell are real and eternal, Pope warns

The Early Church Fathers on Hell - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
IS THE NEW MASS ‘SOFT ON HELL’?
Heaven and hell seem to be forgotten
Which circle of Hell do You belong in?
"To Hell with Hell!": The Spiritual Dumbing Down of the Generations
Reflecting on Hell: Sermon for the First Sunday in Advent
The Reality of Satan and the Victory of Jesus and Mary (an Exorcist speaks out)
Beware the Serpent’s Promises
Americans Describe Their Views About Life After Death(Only One 1/2 of 1% Think They Are Hell-Bound)
Sister Faustina's Vision of Hell

[Revolting cat!]

Hell is scrolling through pages and pages of text and undisplayed illustrations, cut and pasted from somewhere, all of which read by no one including the poster himself.

[BlackVeil]

Groan! You are right.

[BlackVeil]

But in the parable of Lazarus, it is said of the living “they have Moses and the Prophets” to save them from Hell.

[PastorBooks]

“But in the parable of Lazarus, it is said of the living “they have Moses and the Prophets” to save them from Hell.”

When Jesus said that He hadn’t yet risen from the dead. It was too early to believe on Him for salvation. Moses and the Prophets looked forward to His time, when He would lay down His life for us.

All we have to do is surrender to Him, ask Him to forgive us and trust Him that He will, and He will give us His Spirit and eternal life.

[redgolum]

Do you accept the Old Testament accounts of the invasion of Canna?

[crosshairs]

Purgatory isn’t a place anymore; John Paul said so.

No, that was Limbo. How low can you go. Purgatory is still a ski resort. But it definitely is not a place prior to Heaven. Another one of Satan's great deceptions.

[plain talk]

He is right. He is no theologian.

[ScubieNuc]

But the concept is certainly there when Paul speaks of those "saved, but as through fire" and when 2 Maccabees attests to the Jewish practice -- which continues today -- of prayer for the dead.

First, 2 Maccabees is part of the Apocrapha which wasn't viewed as Scripture by Most Jews and certainly not by Jesus and the first Christians. This is seen by none of it being quoted by Jesus or the first Christians even though it existed at that time.

Second, 1 Corinthians chapter 3 is a parable talking about the judgement of our works. It certainly isn't about a physical torture. Here is the actual Scripture:

1Cor 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

First the foundation of every saved person is Christ, but what we do, our works, will be judged and those with value will recieve rewards and those without will be eliminated. These verses say nothing about a punishment for transgressions.

In fact the Bible says this about our transgressions:

Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

There is no place in the Bible which says that we need to finish up or complete the payment for our transgressions. That's why Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross. Jesus did it all and there is no amount of suffering we can or need to do which would or could pay for our transgressions.

That is why Catholicism is wrong when it teaches:"Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."

(The above is from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm )

[ScubieNuc]

Continuing your line of reasoning: I don’t want to be a parent who would “put them out of their misery”.

Really? If your child or parent or grand parent or anyone that you loved was suffering and if that suffering was in punishment for some wrong they had done and they recognized their wrong, you wouldn't want to put them out of their misery? That's pretty sad. I would. Even my pets, who have suffered at the end of their life, I have shown mercy and "put them out of their misery."

[ScubieNuc]

That is the reason why there are so many protestant sects, each claims to have the real Truth. I call that chaos.

I'm not speaking for all or any specific "protestant sect", I am reading and studying the Bible and believing in what it teaches. It is Christ and the Bible that is the "real truth" not any church or sect. In fact, Catholic churches are certainly not all of "one mind". So yes, there is chaos here on earth for us all, but the Way out of the chaos is found in Christ and the Bible, not in the traditions or teachings of man not supported by Christ or the Bible.

Believe what you will, what is true is true. We are not obligated to believe one way or the other about Hell, only to be obedient to God.

That I pretty much agree with. While I now know that the doctrine of eternal punishing is false, believing in that doctrine isn't required for salvation. Our primary purpose is to be obedient to God and in order to know what God wants of us, it's important/required to read and study His Word, the Bible.

[Cronos]

It was never officially defined as a place. It IS the final purification for those already saved by the blood of the Lamb, by the grace of God. We can do nothing while in ther to improve our experience, only by repenting as much of our sins (and we have many) before we die do we “shorten” this final purification. Truly speaking, our lives are a continuous purification by God, making us Holy to be in His presence — nothing that we do purifies us

[Cronos]

Do you accept the Old Testament accounts of the invasion of Canna?

I read that as "Old Testament accounts of the invasion of Canada" :)

[Cronos]

Well, that is the limbo of the righteous — where the Jews who died before Christ went.

[metmom]

Jesus blood cleanses us from ALL sin. There’s nothing left to be purified from.

Purgatory is an unscriptural constuct invented by the Catholic church. Once you die, there are no second chances. You make your decision here.

Follow Christ.

Or not.

[metmom]

Jesus blood cleanses us from ALL sin. There’s nothing left to be purified from.

Purgatory is an unscriptural constuct invented by the Catholic church. Once you die, there are no second chances. You make your decision here.

Follow Christ.

Or not.